Class 5 with heavy trailer Code 20 Endorsement - Page 5

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  1. #61
    Registered User jeeponrock's Avatar
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    Re: Class 5 with heavy trailer Code 20 Endorsement

    Quote Originally Posted by bushpilotmexico View Post
    I'm getting in on this thread a little late...bought a 2002 Okanagan 5th wheel this May, licensed it and bought insurance. The wife and I drove 8000 miles this summer over 2 months with the 5th wheel in tow behind our 2003 Dodge Ram 3500 dually.

    Just found out from a friend that I don't have a heavy trailer endorsement on my class 5 driver's license and can't legally tow the 5th wheel (it has a GVWR of 6108 kg).

    Nobody told me neither the dealer who sold it to me nor when I bought the license and insurance.

    I assume that when the 5th wheel was attached I was driving this summer without insurance?

    I wrote the written test this morning and managed to pass....got my learner's permit. Now I can't drive the unit without an equal or higher license holder in the right seat.
    You could schedule the road test right away and have your full license before your next trip

    How many people are on the roads in BC with heavy 5th wheels who haven't got a clue that they are breaking the law and risk a lack of insurance if they cause an accident?
    A lot unfortunately. Sadly even more people overload their trucks. For example, the tow capacity on your 2003 Dodge 3500 varies between 10,450lb and 16,200lb depending on the configuration of the truck (rough numbers based on the trailer life guide. So you could be overloaded before you even fill the tanks on that trailer.

    Salesmen usually don't say a word about weight ratings etc. There are some honest ones out there but most don't want to loose the sale and the reality is, most consumers think their trucks can tow anything you can hook to them.

    First off, you may not be breaking any laws. If you re-read what was posted earlier you will see that it doesn't matter what it is rated for, it is based off what it actually weighs. In your case, if it is over, there is a restriction 51 specifically for RV's that doesn't include everything that the restriction 20 does (at least that is how I remember the difference).
    I posted a link to ICBC's page on restriction 20 and 51 back in post #4.
    http://www.icbc.com/driver-licensing...ensed/towingrv

    In the case of an heavy house trailer, you need the restriction 51 once your trailer weighs more that 4600kg. So as Mermaid says, go weigh it to make sure but given the 6108kg GVWR I'm pretty sure your trailer weighs more than that.
    Jon B.
    '10 Keyboard

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  3. #62

    Re: Class 5 with heavy trailer Code 20 Endorsement

    Quote Originally Posted by mermaid.5 View Post

    First off, you may not be breaking any laws. If you re-read what was posted earlier you will see that it doesn't matter what it is rated for, it is based off what it actually weighs. In your case, if it is over, there is a restriction 51 specifically for RV's that doesn't include everything that the restriction 20 does (at least that is how I remember the difference).

    I appreciate your response.....now the Class 3 Learner Drivers License that I was issued says under RESTRICTIONS/ENDORSEMENTS 21 51

    To the left of my signature is imprinted NOTE: QUALIFIED SUPERVISOR REQUIRED

    What is the definition of RESTRICTION 51?

    I can only assume that I must have in the right seat a person with either the heavy trailer endorsement or a higher license when I move the rig on to the highway.

    I don't need the driving practice but would like to at least be able to drive the rig to the facility for my road test without having to inconvenience someone or ask them to take time from work.

    It's kind of crazy when you often see some old 80 year old geezer wheeling down the road in a 38 foot Class A dragging a full size car behind and not needing any kind of endorsement to his license unless his coach has air brakes....what's the logic?


    I called ICBC and the agent said that (believe it if you will) if I had been driving the rig last summer and had an accident they would pay the claim even though I did not have the heavy trailer endorsement because my argument would be that I was never told. Personally I think they would drop you like a hot potato

    She said that now I have written the test and have the learner permit I now acknowledge responsibility and all insurance claims would be denied.

  4. #63

    Re: Class 5 with heavy trailer Code 20 Endorsement

    Now that I have studied my learner license I think she has given me the wrong one as it refers to ENDORSEMENTS 21 51

    Endorsement 21 is for a house trailer and the license actually says HOUSE TRAILER COMBINATION ONLY

    I told her I had a 5th wheel and that should be ENDORSEMENT 20. Correct me if I am wrong?

  5. #64
    Registered User jeeponrock's Avatar
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    Re: Class 5 with heavy trailer Code 20 Endorsement

    Quote Originally Posted by bushpilotmexico View Post
    Now that I have studied my learner license I think she has given me the wrong one as it refers to ENDORSEMENTS 21 51

    Endorsement 21 is for a house trailer and the license actually says HOUSE TRAILER COMBINATION ONLY

    I told her I had a 5th wheel and that should be ENDORSEMENT 20. Correct me if I am wrong?
    For a RV 5th wheel you want endorsement 51.

    http://www.icbc.com/driver-licensing...types-licences


    endorsement 20 works as well but then you need a regular medical test. Not worth it unless you plan on hauling for commercial purposes.
    Jon B.
    '10 Keyboard

  6. #65

    Re: Class 5 with heavy trailer Code 20 Endorsement

    So they must assume that a 5th wheel is classified as a house trailer and the learner permit I was issued is correct?

    I don't need the heavy trailer endorsement?

  7. #66
    Registered User jeeponrock's Avatar
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    Re: Class 5 with heavy trailer Code 20 Endorsement

    Quote Originally Posted by bushpilotmexico View Post
    So they must assume that a 5th wheel is classified as a house trailer and the learner permit I was issued is correct?
    I don't know the exact legal definition ICBC uses but simply put a house trailer is something with a toilet, a place to cook and to sleep. So a house trailer could be either a 5th wheel or a bumper pull or a goose neck trailer. If it says endorsement 51 on your learners then I'd say you got the right thing. It's what you need to pull a heavy house trailer.

    I don't need the heavy trailer endorsement?
    The heavy trailer endorsement (20) is what you need to pull any kind of heavy trailer. A dump trailer, a bumper pull or 5th wheel flat deck equipment trailer, a big enclosed trailer, etc. It also covers house trailers. It's meant more for commercial use though and comes with a requirement to get a regular medical check.
    Jon B.
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  8. #67
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    Re: Class 5 with heavy trailer Code 20 Endorsement

    Are you sure about this house trailer defenition?

    When I asked they were talking about a RV license but at no time did they call it a house trailer .

    I have a friend who pulls house trailers and he needs a special license to pull them.

    I dont think you can pull a 14'x70' house trailer using your RV license?

  9. #68
    Registered User jeeponrock's Avatar
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    Re: Class 5 with heavy trailer Code 20 Endorsement

    Quote Originally Posted by EXCLUSIVE 4X4 View Post
    Are you sure about this house trailer defenition?

    When I asked they were talking about a RV license but at no time did they call it a house trailer .

    I have a friend who pulls house trailers and he needs a special license to pull them.

    I dont think you can pull a 14'x70' house trailer using your RV license?
    There is a big difference between a recreational "house trailer" (ICBC's words not mine) and a mobile home

    This thread is all about recreational stuff. If you want to pull mobile homes around you're going to need at least a medium duty truck and a commercial license.
    Jon B.
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  10. #69

    Re: Class 5 with heavy trailer Code 20 Endorsement

    Hey guys, I appreciate all your input and my driver's test is scheduled for this coming Monday in Kelowna. I found a friend with the 51 endorsement on his Class 5 driver license who is going to accompany me just to stay legal and at least have some insurance on the road.

    My truck is a 2003 Dodge Ram dually 4x4, lift kit in the front, MBRP exhaust system, pilar on driver's side showing tranny temp, manifold pressure and lastly EGT. I had a BD exhaust brake installed just after I bought the truck last May. I also have BD's Ultra Tuner which under the Tow/Performance boosted my hp to just over 300 and gave me 650 ft lbs of torque.

    Being a 68 year old codger and knowing that Dodge doesn't have the best reputation for trannys I won't be going any drag racing.

  11. #70
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    Re: Class 5 with heavy trailer Code 20 Endorsement

    a recreational trailer is under a small plate that carries it's own GVW is it not? You should not have to raise the GVW on your truck in this case unless it is a bad design which puts allot of it's weight on the tow vehicle. You will either need a min of a class 3 licence or the code 51 on your licence for a heavy RV trailer from what I know.

  12. #71

    Re: Class 5 with heavy trailer Code 20 Endorsement

    Quote Originally Posted by brian46 View Post
    a recreational trailer is under a small plate that carries it's own GVW is it not? You should not have to raise the GVW on your truck in this case unless it is a bad design which puts allot of it's weight on the tow vehicle. You will either need a min of a class 3 licence or the code 51 on your licence for a heavy RV trailer from what I know.

    The 5th wheel has it's own GVWR which in my case is 6280 kg (13,816 lbs)....the pin weight is 1900 lbs.

    The towing capacity of my truck is listed at 21,000 lbs. The GVWR is 12,000 lbs, the curb weight of the truck is 7380 lbs which doesn't include passengers or load. The GVW is the truck, the passengers and load and the 1900 lb pin weight also becomes a part of the GVW.

    The payload of my truck is listed at 4600 lbs (curb weight of 7380 + payload of 4600 lbs = 11,980 or the GVWR which is close to the listed 12,000 lbs) subtract the pin weight of 1900 lbs (part of the load) and my payload becomes 2600 lbs.

    The maximum trailer weight that I can tow is listed at 13,450 lbs. If I put myself and the wife in the cab our total weight is 336 lbs, we'll add another 200 lbs for gear plus the pin weight of 1900 lbs = a GVW of 9640 lbs or 2360 lbs less than the GVWR of 12,000 lbs.

    My maximum towing capacity is 21,000 lbs and if I am correct that is the GCVWR or Gross Combined Vehicle Weight Rating.

    So if we subtract 9640 lbs (my GVW) from 21,000 lbs we get 11,360 lbs which would be the maximum weight of the 5th wheel that I can tow. My 5th wheel manufacturer lists the curb weight of my unit at 10,940 lbs so I guess my legal payload would only be 420 lbs (guess I had better leave the weights and barbells at home!).

    If my calculations are flawed perhaps someone might be able to set me straight?

  13. #72
    Registered User jeeponrock's Avatar
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    Re: Class 5 with heavy trailer Code 20 Endorsement

    Quote Originally Posted by bushpilotmexico View Post
    My 5th wheel manufacturer lists the curb weight of my unit at 10,940 lbs so I guess my legal payload would only be 420 lbs (guess I had better leave the weights and barbells at home!).

    If my calculations are flawed perhaps someone might be able to set me straight?
    I'm too tired to think about the weights but I will say that the manufacturers weight for your RV is typically a dry weight. Thats before you add propane, water, and the usual necessities that one takes for a camping trip. Get your RV loaded and take it across the scales (wait until the scale is closed to be safe ). FYI - 50 gallons of water is roughly 420lbs).

    This guide will tell you how to calculate the weights properly.
    http://www.th.gov.bc.ca/CVSE/vehicle...R_brake_DL.pdf
    Jon B.
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  14. #73
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    Re: Class 5 with heavy trailer Code 20 Endorsement

    Quote Originally Posted by bushpilotmexico View Post
    My maximum towing capacity is 21,000 lbs and if I am correct that is the GCVWR or Gross Combined Vehicle Weight Rating.

    So if we subtract 9640 lbs (my GVW) from 21,000 lbs we get 11,360 lbs which would be the maximum weight of the 5th wheel that I can tow. My 5th wheel manufacturer lists the curb weight of my unit at 10,940 lbs so I guess my legal payload would only be 420 lbs (guess I had better leave the weights and barbells at home!).

    If my calculations are flawed perhaps someone might be able to set me straight?
    The GCVWR is a manufacturer's recommendation but you can license it for anything you want. The only way to know your weights is to load 'er up and go thought a scale (after hours the scales are left ON so it's easy to do). When I was looking at campers last years they had switched to listing WET weights since so many people were buying campers at their payload limit DRY. I noticed a lot of 5ths had a really small payload (GVW - curb weight) but I have no idea what's going on.

  15. #74
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    Re: Class 5 with heavy trailer Code 20 Endorsement

    Just an update.

    After getting my trailer inspected after multiple lengthy conversations with the ICBC Licencing dept, My trailer is now insured under a flat deck low boy car trailer like it was originally manufactured, it is now on a utility plate, and has a licenced 6400kg GVW.

  16. #75
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    Re: Class 5 with heavy trailer Code 20 Endorsement

    Congratulations. When I read other forums about truck/trailer licensing down South -- where each state does it's own thing -- BC is an oasis of sanity.

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