dobson trail

[jeremy]

as to avoid any further clutter on a valid trail run thead, ill post here.


for those who had diffculty interpreting my previous post, ill clairify it. i have two completely seperate issues in which i have beef.
first off, i am NOT opposed to the construction of this trail. im all for the opening of new trails, also the fact that the people involved appear to be the ones who actually wheel. :mullet i am complaining about the highly opinionated, narrow minded people who blast people for driving off a trail, whereas they are basically silent on this issue.the issue here is the double standard imposed by these people. i am not tree hugger, in fact i feel quite the opposite, as many are overly concerned about environmental impact that wheelers have.

"There are a LOT of overgrown trails around here that are waiting to be discovered"

it has been stated this is a "new" trail and most likely a "creek bed". that does not fit the tread lightly conditions that i have seen imposed here before. so would that mean i could take anything remotely resembling a path and 're-discover' it as a trail with your? im not looking for their approval, just to point out how hippocritical they can be. personally, i would absolutely have no problems driving on this new trail, but due to my location, it is quite impractical as im several hours away. the only conclusion i can come to is that the people who would usually blast people for such actions are silent because they themselves will be using this trail. they seem to find it much easier to scorn people who they do not know or who are located far away.



as for my second beef, mabye its the wording used. i wheel because of the challenge and enjoyment i get from it. in a sense it is freedom from paved roads and the laws imposed on them. the last thing i want is to have to follow someone elses guidelines - that is what im escaping them in the first place.
i completely understand the logic based upon having requirements to do a trail, but saying they are not allowed to even attempt it because they havent spent as much money on thier truck modifying it to be more capable is ubsurd. mabye, 'very stongly recomending' rather than 'tolerating' requirements would be better suited. if this trail is as remotely difficult as implied, there should no reason to worry about people taking thier stockers on it, as they wouldnt even make the first obstacle. telling them to park and walk? what do you want, your own little rock crawling event with spectators? i absolutely cannot stand arrogance and the 'watch-me' attitide i find many people with heavily modified rigs have. this is not jealousy.
no, i do not drive a rubicon, in fact, the vehicle i drive a would likely be quite capable of this trail. are you confused as to why i am defending/supporting the 'little guys'? we all were once there. by challenging ourselves, we become better drivers and find what we should modify next. i find just as interesting to watch others attempt something as i do to try it myself. people usually have a consevative approach as to what they will attempt with thier less modified trucks and everyone ive met on a run would not put thier vehicle in a position where they are far beyond thier abilities. virually everyone i have wheeled with that had a less capable rig, underestimated thier abilities out of fear of damage and often opt not to attempt an obsticle they could possably do. that is thier choice, but for you to decide for them is unreasonable. im not saying everyone with a 4x4 button should try this, but those without a truck as modified as yours should at least have the choice and i highly doubt that someone with a sevely under equiped truck would attempt it anyway. i understand there are clueless idiots out there, but do you think they are going to listen to you anyway?


as far as sharing a trail with others, if i was in a position to be running this trail, you would recieve my grattitude for sharing. my problem is 'inviting everyone' to play and them imposing conditions. if you did not want to deal with others breakange and having to wait, why did you not privately invite people? you have disclosed it in a very public place with thousands of readers. i hope by doing so you have not over-exposed it to the point where it will draw attention by those who have authority to stop you and me from using it.

[AndrewH]

look buddy, we don't want any trucks that are going to hold us up. since you have not been out with us before you don't a clue of the stuff we wheel. at the trail head it took about 5 combined hours to get 3 trucks about 20 meters.

i would hardly call this a trail, more like a bunch of VW sized rocks that we climb over.

also those 3 trucks all were locked front/rear, long wheelbase and everyone had a dual transfer case set-up. i think it is best for you to stick to the logging roads.

how the hell can you tread heavily over rocks?
get a life:laugh

[lars]

personally, i would absolutely have no problems driving on this new trail, but due to my location, it is quite impractical as im several hours away. the only conclusion i can come to is that the people who would usually blast people for such actions are silent because they themselves will be using this trail. they seem to find it much easier to scorn people who they do not know or who are located far away.

Ok, let's first dispense with the vague references. Who was these "silent people" you are referring to? In order to debate this topic, we need specific examples of how they're being hypocritical.



as for my second beef, mabye its the wording used. i wheel because of the challenge and enjoyment i get from it. in a sense it is freedom from paved roads and the laws imposed on them. the last thing i want is to have to follow someone elses guidelines - that is what im escaping them in the first place.

Then you've already solved your problem. Don't go 'wheeling with people who impose rules on the group they're leading.



i completely understand the logic based upon having requirements to do a trail, but saying they are not allowed to even attempt it because they havent spent as much money on thier truck modifying it to be more capable is ubsurd. mabye, 'very stongly recomending' rather than 'tolerating' requirements would be better suited. if this trail is as remotely difficult as implied, there should no reason to worry about people taking thier stockers on it, as they wouldnt even make the first obstacle.

Life would be so much better if people had that kind of common sense, but many don't. I've seen plenty of ill-equipped rigs get heavily abused just because the driver's ego was bigger than his vehicle's abilities. The end result is trail breakage that was pretty much a certainty. When you're with a group, that kind of irresponsible behaviour is unacceptable since you end up slowing everyone down.


telling them to park and walk?

A lot of people park and walk when they want to see the trail (and probably carnage) but don't want to risk their vehicles. It's not that offensive a notion.


i understand there are clueless idiots out there, but do you think they are going to listen to you anyway?

One can always hope.



as far as sharing a trail with others, if i was in a position to be running this trail, you would recieve my grattitude for sharing. my problem is 'inviting everyone' to play and them imposing conditions. if you did not want to deal with others breakange and having to wait, why did you not privately invite people? you have disclosed it in a very public place with thousands of readers. i hope by doing so you have not over-exposed it to the point where it will draw attention by those who have authority to stop you and me from using it.

I agree with you on that point. This public invite is a very bad idea.

...lars

[jeremy]

Originally posted by AndrewH
look buddy, we don't want any trucks that are going to hold us up.

completely understandable. then why is it posted as an open invite in a public forum?


how the hell can you tread heavily over rocks?

plase read carefully! as i stated, I AM NOT OPPOSED TO THIS TYPE OF WHEELING or this trail being constructed.


i guess my locked, lwb, bobbed yota with a crawler is better suited for logging roads then. thanks for the advice.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

i guess the type of people/mentality you encounter on the trail is quite different in the lower mainland than in the interior.
youre exactally right, i go wheeling to to be free and have fun, not be governed, thats why i am selective who i wheel with. going by thier 'rules', i would be 'allowed' to attempt this trail, but why bother having to justify myself?

like i said, if the original post had been worded in a different manner, i may have interpreted it differently. it could almost be taken that they basically want an audience, since it appears the only rigs they want actually running it are the people they already know.

[crashedit]

Sorry about the remark..(rubicon), but I have a question for you.

The thread was an invite to a wheeling run, that you are not attending (for whatever reason) so why would you post to it??
Have you ever wheeled with those guys...no, and yet you have based your opinion on what? These guy s are more than happy to have people ride along with them to share in the experience of some of the obstacles (safety permitting), and furthermore, are the guys who actually go out, find trails, clean up the trails, and organize events like monday.
Its people like you, who hijack a clearly labeled invite/reply thread, just to use it as a soapbox to preach and rant about people that you are obviously ingnorant about, and somethingthat you are also ignorant to the details of.
Not to mention the fact that you had absolutly no intentions of going on the daytrip.
Where do you get off man.


:confused:

[jeeponrock]

Originally posted by jeremy
i completely understand the logic based upon having requirements to do a trail, but saying they are not allowed to even attempt it because they havent spent as much money on thier truck modifying it to be more capable is ubsurd. mabye, 'very stongly recomending' rather than 'tolerating' requirements would be better suited. if this trail is as remotely difficult as implied, there should no reason to worry about people taking thier stockers on it, as they wouldnt even make the first obstacle. telling them to park and walk? what do you want, your own little rock crawling event with spectators? i absolutely cannot stand arrogance and the 'watch-me' attitide i find many people with heavily modified rigs have. this is not jealousy.

I believe you've seriously misunderstood what's been said.

Rick is following what should be commonly understood etiquette for organized trail runs. He is leading a run and for his run, he's asked that only vehicles of a certain type participate. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this. It's done to ensure that people who are not properly prepared to run with this group don't cause problems for themselves or the others on the run. Every sport uses this approach to one degree or another.

The same principle is usually applied to trails. People who have run the trail can and should inform people of the difficulty of the trial and potential hazards. How responsible would it be not to warn newbies or people with ill equipped trucks that they could run into trouble on the trail? That's how trucks break, trails get modified, people get hurt, and areas get closed.

If you want to run a trail on your own terms, organize a run of your own. If you want to run with another group, follow their rules.

[jeremy]

sorry, but my original and main rant was about the vocal, or not so vocal 'tread lightly' group. kinda sidetracked to the other stuff.

the silent people im reffering to is basically anyone who has been repeatedly vocal in the past about 'tread lightly' issues, not necassarily the people who are building this trail. by the standards that they've imposed, this is a perfect example of what not to do. i am not saying i want them to speak up, but im just pointing out the double standard that they seem to impose that ive noticed.


as for the whole invite thing. mabye the being 'tolerated' concept struck a nerve. if i was hosting such a run i would privately invite people. i would expect Rick persoanlly knows most of the people who would have capable rigs and that would show. even if it had been worded more along the lines that this is a very difficuly trail and that you will be travelling with a capable and well prepared group and would be expected to be aswell.
i am NOT saying they are, but the way i read it, it makes me feel like im being tolerated by an elite group of snobs with supertrucks

[BBP]

Alright. I'll play. I have been vocal about trespassing and treading lightly on this board and I am sure I have made a few enemies doing so. So be it.

That being said, I trust Rick's judgement 100% as to what is acceptable for a new trail. Get it through your head that clearing deadfall and moving the odd rock or two is NOT and I repeat NOT "constructing" of any kind and I will thank you to stop calling it that.

Rick and many others who will be there have wheeled all over BC and down in the states and know what treading lightly is, do you? It seems to me you don't. Please elaborate on this double standard we have imposed. These trails are legal to run if they are crown land, were you aware of that?

The invite is posted in a public forum because people were bitching at Rick about the Dobson trail being secret. Keep up if you're going to shoot your mouth off please.

Rick has decided to govern who runs the trail for the reasons that have been stated already. If your truck is not capable of running the trail would you drive on it anyways? Sounds to me like you would. :rolleyes: If you had ever met Rick or any of the others you would learn to trust their careful judgement as we have.

Seeing as you haven't why don't you STFU.

[jeremy]

hmmmm.........
mysteriously dissappearing posts?
whats new.:confused:

[lars]

sorry, but my original and main rant was about the vocal, or not so vocal 'tread lightly' group.

If I am correct that this is a boulder trail, then I still fail to see how driving on boulders is treading heavily.



the silent people im reffering to is basically anyone who has been repeatedly vocal in the past about 'tread lightly' issues, not necassarily the people who are building this trail. by the standards that they've imposed, this is a perfect example of what not to do.


You haven't seen this trail, nor read have you received a detailed description of it. How can you say that this is a perfect example?



i am not saying i want them to speak up, but im just pointing out the double standard that they seem to impose that ive noticed.

There is no double standard because you haven't proven that this is treading heavily. If there is no environmental impact and no political impact, then where does the accusation of treading heavily come in?


as for the whole invite thing. mabye the being 'tolerated' concept struck a nerve. if i was hosting such a run i would privately invite people. i would expect Rick persoanlly knows most of the people who would have capable rigs and that would show.
Well, I know for a fact that he has met other 'wheelers who have similar capabilities/attitudes by issuing these types of invites. I also guess that he is issuing the invite in response to Munro's and 350Toy's complaints about too much trail secrecy.



i am NOT saying they are, but the way i read it, it makes me feel like im being tolerated by an elite group of snobs with supertrucks


:violin Ah, a case of hurt feelers. BTW, who says you're being tolerated? :clown

I'm just kidding with that last remark.

...lars

[lars]

Originally posted by jeremy
hmmmm.........
mysteriously dissappearing posts?
whats new.:confused:
Actually, I deleted BushBuggy's post (and your reply to it) since his post didn't even contain anything 'cept for a quote of your original post.
In other words, it wasn't germaine to this thread.

...lars

[stuck'n'mud]

I don't have to watch TV anymore. This board is like a Soap Opera\Comedy channel all in one.:laugh :laugh

[jeremy]

i am not disputing whether or not this is treading heavy. its the uneducated claims of others heavy treading. example: the questionable whipsaw pic. example: little white


as pete said, he trusts ricks judgement (i assume they know each other). if this had been some other unknown person, you can bet there would be some question to the impact they are causing. as rick said in his own worrds, this is a 'new trail' , not just clearing an existing one.

[lars]

Originally posted by jeremy
i am not disputing whether or not this is treading heavy. its the uneducated claims of others heavy treading. example: the questionable whipsaw pic. example: little white

Ah, now we're getting to it, aren't we?

Regarding Little White, the only thing I've said about it is that I heard it was closed. This is not the same as a treading heavily issue since you are now 'wheeling in direct contravention of the law.

As for the Whipsaw, posts were made on both this board and others regarding the possible closure of that trail due to people driving off the main road. It is because of that danger of closure that I have been imploring people to STAY ON THE TRAIL. As for environmental impact, that can be argued since some types of terrain re-grow better than others. Parts of the Whipsaw have re-grown rather nicely but that doesn't negate the fact that some groups are agitating for the trail's closure and a big, ugly part of their ammunition are the mud bogs and hill climbs that are clearly not part of the trail.

You DO see a difference between 'wheeling on rocks vs. alpine meadow, don't you?

...lars

[jeremy]

Ah, now we're getting to it, aren't we?
ummmm, my views and arguements havent changed

YOU personally are not the butt of my beef, although you contribute.
i will attempt to aquire and post the pic of the existing trail used to get to the location of the 'naughty' pic.

regarding little white (which is an alpine meadow), taken directly from your site on trip report you wrote:

"I found a nice little shortcut which got us to the short, steep climb just before the lake"
" Once again, he was accompanied by great plumes of dust and flying rock"



what i ask is that everyone be judged equally in regards to their treading heavily/lightly regardless of who they know or where they live and wheel

[DMMcG]

Originally posted by AndrewH


how the hell can you tread heavily over rocks?


Just a little devil's advocacy:

........if you crack a diff, lose a brake-line, empty your t-case, pierce your oil pan and leave the leftovers soaking into the ground 'cause you didn't have the foresight to have an ice-cream (or other) bucket in your truck for just such a misadventure....

It'd be preferable for you to also pick up the contaminated soil and transport it to an appropriate disposal facility (I've seen it done!), but at the least you should make an effort to catch what you can.

I grew up far enough away from the city, with few enough people about, that the odd "spill" wasn't considered a big deal. In today's "urban" 4-wheeling reality, it's important that we be aware of impact wheeling on "rocks" can have, and do our best to minimize environmental degradation. If you think I'm being too "green" in my outlook, bear in mind that we are being collectively scrutinized by others who are far less forgiving - and those others are organized to a degree that our community is not. They have the ear of governments, whether the governments like it or not, because they have the financial & political clout to make a difference.

[crashedit]

What is your deal?? Are you bored?? You hijack a thread, start a huge debate, are calling down people you dont even know..and now you are dredging up crap from the past. Go out and wheel, or at least get a hobby other than wanking in threads that don't pertain to you.
I mean I've read other threads that you have posted to, and you seem like a guy who knows his stuff, and is eager to help with the tech questions newbies (like myself) have. So whats with the inflamatory crap you keep spewing out??

:confused:

[jeremy]

ironically i would be re-assembing my engine right now, see what happens when your main bearings are late! so ya, i am bored, blame it on lordco.
but my views are not imaginary
memebers of this board have made un-educated conclusions about people they dont know and have started treads bashing others based upon heresay, misinterpreted threads they jumped in on and photos they do not know anything about. so how is what im doing worse? the point ive trying to make all along, is that i want the vocal 'tread lightly' crew to judge their peers equally as they do strangers.

[crashedit]

You should do the same then, dont you think??

[jeremy]

re: yotabonz; thanks for posting an intelligent response.

ive re-read everything that has been said by myself and others. people seem to take opinions way too personally here. my intention was not to piss off the rick or the others hosting this run, nor am i angry at you. i think my bottled up views from the past few weeks, unintentionally blurred the two issues together. my concern was primarily about some others on this board and the whole tread lightly issue. i did not want to 'hijack' your thread, thats why i started a new one. it sucks the problems and mentality you have encountered in the past and i understand exactally what you mean. ive seen 'big boys' totally mock and demean smaller rigs based on absolutely nothing relevant. this really annoys me, and perhaps i catagorized you accrdingly. thats probably why the impression i recived was more harsh than intended.
i hope the trip goes well and everyone has fun. hopefully this trail remains open long term so i can have the opportunity to try it.

let this be a lesson to everyone as to what happens when you get stuck inside for a day and need to vent. the horse is dead.



that aside, i still feel what i stated in my previous post about my main issue.

[fullthrottle]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by crashedit
[B]Sorry about the remark..(rubicon), but I have a question for you.

The thread was an invite to a wheeling run, that you are not attending (for whatever reason) so why would you post to it??
Have you ever wheeled with those guys...no, and yet you have based your opinion on what? These guy s are more than happy to have people ride along with them to share in the experience of some of the obstacles (safety permitting), and furthermore, are the guys who actually go out, find trails, clean up the trails, and organize events like monday.
Its people like you, who hijack a clearly labeled invite/reply thread, just to use it as a soapbox to preach and rant about people that you are obviously ingnorant about, and somethingthat you are also ignorant to the details of.
Not to mention the fact that you had absolutly no intentions of going on the daytrip.
Where do you get off man.








get off the ****in band wagon and stfu:rolleyes:

[crashedit]

Bandwagon....i was just standing up for a group average wheeler, some of those who happen to be buddys. Jeremy good on ya..if I ever need advice about swapping toy stuff into a Sami I hope you will be able to help. Fullthrottle, dude why be so rude??
If you want to say something, make it intelligent, the only one "on the bandwagon" as you so eloquently put it....is you.
Sorry this got out of hand.

:canadian

[killerbugsbunny]

I would have to agree with Jeremy point of veiws 100 percent. He hit the nail right on the head. The sad thing is you all stand on the soap box preaching and don't really think about what you are saying. Jeremy keep up the very open point of veiw.Everyone of has problems and are too ignorant to see it for themselves. As far as I concern , C-edit is a waste of oxygen.

[lars]

Originally posted by jeremy
regarding little white (which is an alpine meadow), taken directly from your site on trip report you wrote:

"I found a nice little shortcut which got us to the short, steep climb just before the lake"
" Once again, he was accompanied by great plumes of dust and flying rock"

Here's a photo of the trail I was referring to:
http://www.bc4x4.com/tr/1999/kvr/kvr-24.jpg

The points you need to consider are these:

The run was being led by local fourwheelers who were guiding us on their local trails. As such, I understandably assumed that they knew where it was and was not ok for fourwheel. For the record, IS that an acceptable road or not? We were told that it was.
IF it was indicated to us that it was, in fact, off limits, then we wouldn't have gone on that trail...much like we have stopped going to BC Hammers once we found out that it was off limits.


I've never advocated that people should be punished for making an honest mistake (otherwise I'd have some major personal crises). My beef is with people who knowingly trespass or destroy trails. That photo I posted a few days ago re Whipsaw was an excellent illustration of how some of the off-limit trails look like they're fair game for 'wheeling when, in fact, they're not. Furthermore, I didn't know whose vehicles were in the photo but I pixelated the vehicles anyway, since the point of putting up that photo was to show where not to go. The point was not to embarrass someone.

Jeremy, talk to Vic to find out if we were ripping up the Alpine. He was there, as were other Kelowna people. Let me know what he says.



...lars

[jeremy]

this is EXACTALLY the point i was trying to make the whole time.


you made the whipsaw picture a posterchild of what not to do. i give you the credit of not naming anyone, althought a general implication was made towards a group of people. they know who they are, and trust me they do not appreciate it.

the two situations have virtually identical circumstances, yet one is publically condemed, while the other is accepted by the same person. this is a textbook double standard.

you ask if this is an accepable road;
there are no yellow lines on the trail. what is or is not considered a trail is basically a matter of opinion. your opinion was that the trail on little white is a trail. in my opinion it is aswell.
now take a different trail of basically the same condition and type of terrain, and suddenly it is not. this is a double standard. i am not pinning this solely on you larry, but you are the only one who appears to interested in debating this sujbect, thus i am using examples you can relate to. remeber, i am not debating what is or isnt treading lightly, but rather how it is used unfairly.



now take the current events.
please remeber i am criticising the ones who are vocal about the tread lightly policy, not the ones who are involed in this trail
if im not mistaken, the person(s) involved in the making of the current trail are the ones are the same people as the previous, now closed trail. that previous trail involved trespassing on private land and traffic safety issues. none of this was researched properly and as a result it was closed. one would think that they would be subjected to the same public ridicule, but in fact it is quite the opposite. again the double standard.

the people who who are making this a trail have no need to defend themselves. i am not claiming they are 'treading heavily'.
to argue that the fact that the what they are doing is acceptable by the 'vocal tread lighty' group because of the fact that it is rock crawling is completely ubsurd. i can only assume that this based upon the shalow oberservations damage that you 'see'. of coarse the eyesore of rubber marks on rocks palls in comparison to what a set of tires does to soft meadow grass. i find this type of conclusion very narrow minded.
regardless of the type of wheeling, once a trail has been activated, the natural state has been disrupted. with people, come garbage. you may not be the one littering, but the next yahoo is. as it has already been stated, fluid leaks are likely to be more common. rollovers are far more likely as well. with rollovers, comes fluid leakage. paint scrapes off onto rocks. people use the area around the trail as a bathroom. all of these factors are human influenced. the fact these types of trails are very slow to navigate and in turn very short means that the pollution is now very concentrated in comparison to a meadow trail.
now take the type of soil we are dealing with. rocks and gravel. this makes it a natural drainage for all that concentrated pollution to be washed into ponds/streams.
please remember i am not judging the people who use the trail, but the poeple who see this as acceptable yet slam others whos actions infact have far less impact

this is why i claim the 'silent' people as hypocrites. no matter how 'lightly' you tread, you still have an environmantal impact. this IS part of OFF-ROADING whether you like it or not. i accept this and thus do not slam others who wheel (cases involving blatent and intentional disregard exceped of coarse)

in conclusion, am i saying i want this trail stopped or criticised? HELL NO, we are here to wheel and this is how we do it. do i think the group in quesion should shut the hell up? it would be nice, but they are intitled to thier opinions just as i am. all i ask (from the beginning i might add) is that theese people who black label others so easily stop and think about what they are saying and who they choose to judge.

[lars]

Originally posted by jeremy
this is EXACTALLY the point i was trying to make the whole time.

you made the whipsaw picture a posterchild of what not to do. i give you the credit of not naming anyone, althought a general implication was made towards a group of people. they know who they are, and trust me they do not appreciate it.

the two situations have virtually identical circumstances, yet one is publically condemed, while the other is accepted by the same person. this is a textbook double standard.



Your argument is flawed. For the sake of your argument, let's assume that the trail on Little White was off-limits (although both of us and the hosts of that particular run agree that it wasn't). Now, if I said that John Doe was a jerk for driving off the trail on the Whipsaw, but it was ok for me to do it, then yeah, that would be a double standard.

But the point is, I didn't say ANYTHING about the driver. I simply showed a photo of an off-limit trail. Whether the driver knew it was an off-limit trail, I don't know, nor did I comment on it. The point was to show what one of the off-limit trails looked like, because on the Whipsaw, there are a lot of them, which is why the area is in danger of being closed.

So, a double standard with respect to condemning someone does NOT exist, because no one was condemned.



you ask if this is an accepable road;
there are no yellow lines on the trail. what is or is not considered a trail is basically a matter of opinion. your opinion was that the trail on little white is a trail. in my opinion it is aswell.

now take a different trail of basically the same condition and type of terrain, and suddenly it is not. this is a double standard. i am not pinning this solely on you larry, but you are the only one who appears to interested in debating this sujbect, thus i am using examples you can relate to. remeber, i am not debating what is or isnt treading lightly, but rather how it is used unfairly.


I agree that deciding which trails are ok and which are not can be difficult, at times. But there is more to take into account than just personal opinion. Information about land use issues with the Whipsaw were posted within the past few weeks, as were posts imploring people to stay on the main trail. But this point is moot since I wasn't assigning blame on anyone. Whether the person(s) in the photo were on the off-limit trail by accident or by intent, the fact remains that they shouldn't be on it.

As I said before, I have no problem with people making mistakes. The photo was used as nothing more than an example of what one of the off-limit trails on Whipsaw is like. That is why I went to the effort of pixelating the vehicles.

So basically, I'll accept that it wasn't the best idea to use that photo because I didn't know where it came from. But as far as saying that it's a double standard, I disagree.

A final thought: if someone posts a photo to the Internet and it depicts them doing something incriminating (whether they did it intentionally or not), they shouldn't be surprised to see it show up elsewhere on the 'net. There are plenty of eco groups who would be happy to use that photo. I also notice that it is still online.






now take the current events.
please remeber i am criticising the ones who are vocal about the tread lightly policy, not the ones who are involed in this trail
if im not mistaken, the person(s) involved in the making of the current trail are the ones are the same people as the previous, now closed trail. that previous trail involved trespassing on private land and traffic safety issues. none of this was researched properly and as a result it was closed. one would think that they would be subjected to the same public ridicule, but in fact it is quite the opposite. again the double standard.

Again, I think your accusation of a double standard is flawed. It is one thing to be ignorant of some relevant issues (one cannot expect people to go to the land registry to determine ownership of a trail), but quite another to continue to use an area when they are well aware that they are not supposed to be in there.

When the BC Hammers was first driven, the entrance was directly off the hwy which constituted a hazard because people would slow down to watch. A police officer told them to take a different route in. So they found another trail with no fence or signage. The trail went to an area that was basically a huge landslide. When it became known that the company working in the vicinity didn't want the public in there, no one has gone back.

I assume the "public ridicule" of which you speak was related to the Bell Rd entrance to the Rolley Lake trail? If that's the case, then the issue there is that people were TOLD that it was private property (Wes even looked it up at the Land Registry) and yet people still argued that they can go in because there was no signage.

These are two very different cases because the latter involves trespassing with full knowledge that that is exactly what they are doing.




the people who who are making this a trail have no need to defend themselves. i am not claiming they are 'treading heavily'.
to argue that the fact that the what they are doing is acceptable by the 'vocal tread lighty' group because of the fact that it is rock crawling is completely ubsurd. i can only assume that this based upon the shalow oberservations damage that you 'see'. of coarse the eyesore of rubber marks on rocks palls in comparison to what a set of tires does to soft meadow grass. i find this type of conclusion very narrow minded.
regardless of the type of wheeling, once a trail has been activated, the natural state has been disrupted. with people, come garbage. you may not be the one littering, but the next yahoo is.


Following the tenets of Tread Lightly doesn't mean leaving no trace of your presence. It's not possible. It is a matter of degrees, and I would argue that more people would be far more upset to see torn up grass land that tire tracks on rocks. In many cases, we're talking about aesthetics and avoiding the unwanted attention of groups that would like to close trails. It's a very practical consideration. Eco groups leverage the "shallow observations" you mention to gather popular support for land closures. In fact, a caller to a radio show that featured a debate btwn the Island Rock Crawlers and the TLC over the Harbourview issue mentioned just that. She said that she was sickened at all the torn up grassy hills that were the result of fourwheelers hillclimbing up the mountain. It was the aesthetics that bothered her and she was _extremely_ angry.



...lars

[melloyello83]

What is your deal?? Are you bored?? You hijack a thread, start a huge debate, are calling down people you dont even know..and now you are dredging up crap from the past. Go out and wheel, or at least get a hobby other than wanking in threads that don't pertain to you.

I am tired of seeing people who spend more time bitching and complaining about a HARMLESS THREAD and wasting space, than going wheeling!! I think Larry has better things to do that have to deal with these dinks!! This site is for people to find people to wheel with and listing vehicle requirements in standard fare... not something to start a stupid debate over, especially on a site that I PAY $$ to SUPPORT!! If I want to call a guy on being a retard, I will!! I do have a life, thank's for the suggestion, though!!:confused2............and Jeremy, pay the $$, become a supporter, and pay for some of the bandwidth you're eating up. Then you can bitch about anything you like!!:clown.... :spam :spam :spam :spam

[lars]

Originally posted by melloyello83
I am tired of seeing people who spend more time bitching and complaining about a HARMLESS THREAD and wasting space, than going wheeling!! I think Larry has better things to do that have to deal with these dinks!! This site is for people to find people to wheel with and listing vehicle requirements in standard fare... not something to start a stupid debate over, especially on a site that I PAY $$ to SUPPORT!! If I want to call a guy on being a retard, I will!! I do have a life, thank's for the suggestion, though!!:confused2............and Jeremy, pay the $$, become a supporter, and pay for some of the bandwidth you're eating up. Then you can bitch about anything you like!!
Becoming a supporter encourages the future existence of this board but it in no way gives you a stronger voice than anyone else. Otherwise we'd end up with some rather ugly threads (yes, even worse than recently). So, thanks for the support, melloyello83, but I suggest that you allow Jeremy to have his say. I admire the fact that he's presenting his case in a well-thought out fashion, even though it is apparent that I don't fully agree with all his arguments.

I'm tempted to ask you to "mello" out but that would be too easy. ;-)

...lars

[Tuner Inside]

I just don't know what to say. I see where everyone is comming from. I think some people have there springs wound just a little too tight. Some people just need to let things slide every once and awhile.

As for Little White. Regardless of whether it is off limits or not it is a judgement call. If you are going to be tearing the hell out of something just to get somewhhere then i have a problem with that. There is a lake at the top[ of the hill so thats fine so be it.

As for the whipsaw. Well I see no point of going up the face but since it is an established road way at this point then i see no harm in it. I think the whole issue was going somewhere where there is no established road. Am i correct?????????

And that is where I see a point in J's argument!

I thought i had another point but i forgot it.

[Rockdonkey]

get off the ****in band wagon and stfu

Surely you could have said something a little better then this, come on this is a discussion after all. And how are you not just jumping on the band wagon? with a response like that hmmmm....


Im a little confused though, the thread says "dobson trail" but all that is being talked about is whipsaw, from what i can see. But its not my post, it was just an observation.



I would have to agree with Jeremy point of veiws 100 percent. He hit the nail right on the head. The sad thing is you all stand on the soap box preaching and don't really think about what you are saying. Jeremy keep up the very open point of veiw.Everyone of has problems and are too ignorant to see it for themselves. As far as I concern , C-edit is a waste of oxygen.

please explain further, not saying his views are wrong, just i dont believe i have said anything bad, My view has been very open, i have just corrected and stated facts where necessary. From what i read c-edit didnt say anything to offened you so why take such an offensive stance towards him.






anyways it seems that Jeremy and turner inside are the only people here from the okanagan with something good to add to the disuccusion, all you other kelowna and pentiction boys just jump in on the bandwagon and arent really helping the discussion
but name calling an such, i am refering to this thread and in regards to the other thread in trailtalk. But anyways, i just want to have fun and wheel , i have had enough for one day, well maybe

Hey Jeremy, did you buy russ's old Camrock bumper , if so i met you at Canadian tire that day in the Wack, if not well im a fool.

Later Kids

[Rockdonkey]

ive re-read everything that has been said by myself and others. people seem to take opinions way too personally here. my intention was not to piss off the rick or the others hosting this run, nor am i angry at you. i think my bottled up views from the past few weeks, unintentionally blurred the two issues together. my concern was primarily about some others on this board and the whole tread lightly issue. i did not want to 'hijack' your thread, thats why i started a new one. it sucks the problems and mentality you have encountered in the past and i understand exactally what you mean. ive seen 'big boys' totally mock and demean smaller rigs based on absolutely nothing relevant. this really annoys me, and perhaps i catagorized you accrdingly. thats probably why the impression i recived was more harsh than intended.



i hope the trip goes well and everyone has fun. hopefully this trail remains open long term so i can have the opportunity to try it.



I hope you can come down and wheel with us for sure, cause i would love to show you that behind the keyboard, we are truely awsome people. As for the others who jumped the band wagon and decided to judge our character, feel free to join Jeremy, because until you have met us or anybody for that matter, its pretty hard to judge a persons character through a message board

toodles
Happy Trails

[Tuner Inside]

I think it all comes down to common sense and equality. Whats good for one is good for all.

I think the post of the trail run was done right, sort of. An explanation of y a minimum requirement of gear was required. Never leave anything vague. Dont give anyone anything to bitch about.

As for the whole trail thing. Yes it is a new trail thats fine. Its not like a new trail thru a medow or tree block. THe trail is there sort of. Now building a bypass or a whole new trail where one already exists is a big no no. The whole whipsaw hill climb, well thats a judgement call. Im sure that climb isnt new and nor is it growing back.

Bitching at people does nothing. Make your plea about trail ediquite. Then make some signs for the trail heads. Do some trail markers and such. The rest is in the hands of the users.

Picking at faults does nothing.

Human nature, funny thing hey.

[jeremy]

sorry, cant talk now
im up at fire camp near kamloops for a few weeks

[Parnelli_001]

hehe no problem, i just got off from 2 weeks at fire camp down here for osoyoos. stay cool (not possible) drink lots of water and tie your pant lags to your boots (must do)

[Dan]

Originally posted by AndrewH
look buddy, we don't want any trucks that are going to hold us up.

:p People always say that to me.