Class 5 with heavy trailer Code 20 Endorsement [Archive] - BB.BC4x4.COM

: Class 5 with heavy trailer Code 20 Endorsement



Wil
October 8th, 2009, 10:18 pm
I ran into a bit of a landmine today while trying to figure out if my flatdeck trailer insurance was proper.

I have the std class 5 drivers license and today I found a pretty vague reference to a code 20 endorsement if you are hauling a trailer over 4600kg on another bulletin board. As it turns out this is pretty clearly described on the CVSE Trailer Towing FAQ but as a "restriction 20", not a "code 20" as described by ICBC. At any rate this didn't register with me when I read the FAQ so I only have myself to blame on this, part of the problem is that I'm old and think in pounds, not kilos so the 4600KG went in one ear and out the other.

At no time during my registration and insurance purchasing process last month did I get any advisement from the Autoplan agent that my 5443KG (12000lbs) trailer would require an extra endorsement on my drivers license. I accept the fact that Autoplan agents can't know everything but during the process I really think ICBC could put a notification on the computer that the customer (me) should be advised of their obligations.

Moving on to the Code 20 I could not find out any information online on what it is or how you get it so I went to Motor Vehicle branch. As it turns out this must be a pretty rare thing to get as it required quite a bit of conferencing on the part of a few people at the counter.

So basically you have to take a written test that covers the Class 3 license without any air brake qualifications, you have to get a medical and take an eye test.

I will do all of the above if necessary but my feeling is my usage is less than what is covered by this endorsement. One potential problem is that if I go on a trip it's likely that I will be the only one with the proper drivers license endorsement so only I will be able to drive. I think I just bought a trailer that was much larger than necessary for my needs and now I understand why so many trailers in this class are rated at 9990 lbs .

Basically my usage will always fall under the 4600KG threshold so is it possible for me to officially reclassify my trailer from 5443kg (12000lbs) to 4600kg (10141lbs)? I went to an Autoplan agent tonight and they didn't have an answer so I will call ICBC tomorrow as well.

skidmark
October 8th, 2009, 10:34 pm
You don't need the class 3 or the restriction 20 unless your trailer and it's load actually weigh more than 4,500 kg. It matters not what GVW you license it for, at least with regard to your driver's license.

The class 7 or 5 driver's license permits the operation of (ii) a 2 axle motor vehicle or 2 axle tow car with towed vehicles if the towed vehicles in that combination do not exceed 4 600 kg,

What you may need to worry about is the licensed GVW of your pickup that tows the trailer. Typically, you are licensed for 1.5 times your truck's net weight unless you specify differently. This is very likely not enough for the heavy trailer you are talking about.

I understood that you had to write the class 3 test and successfully demonstrate a pre-trip inspection, but I didn't know that you had to do the medical and vision tests.

Wil
October 8th, 2009, 10:56 pm
You don't need the class 3 or the restriction 20 unless your trailer and it's load actually weigh more than 4,500 kg. It matters not what GVW you license it for, at least with regard to your driver's license.

The class 7 or 5 driver's license permits the operation of (ii) a 2 axle motor vehicle or 2 axle tow car with towed vehicles if the towed vehicles in that combination do not exceed 4 600 kg,

What you may need to worry about is the licensed GVW of your pickup that tows the trailer. Typically, you are licensed for 1.5 times your truck's net weight unless you specify differently. This is very likely not enough for the heavy trailer you are talking about.

I understood that you had to write the class 3 test and successfully demonstrate a pre-trip inspection, but I didn't know that you had to do the medical and vision tests.

Thanks Tim, your information is a big relief for me. This all started with getting information on how to properly set the pickup GVW.

The Motor Vehicle branch gave me a copy of the Code 20 Qualifications :

1) Qualfy on a vision screening test and medical to class 3 standards (or class 4 standards if applicant already has a class 4 license).
2)Qualify on a Class 3 knowledge test
3)Qualify on a heavy trailer road test using the Commercial Vehicle Road test form MV2931 (Collect the class 3 road test fee).

Pre-screening is not required to add code 20 to a class 4 or 5 driver's license.

jeeponrock
October 9th, 2009, 12:23 am
Thanks Tim, your information is a big relief for me. This all started with getting information on how to properly set the pickup GVW.

Getting the pickup GVW right will probably prove to be a bigger PITA than that heavy trailer endorsement. By the time you get the pickup GVW high enough to handle that trailer you're going to be forced to take it across every scale you pass.

Remember this thread? http://bb.bc4x4.com/showthread.php?t=144120


Edit - FYI the info on the code 20 endorsement can be found here: http://www.icbc.com/driver-licensing/getting-licensed/towingrv

Wil
October 9th, 2009, 09:47 am
Getting the pickup GVW right will probably prove to be a bigger PITA than that heavy trailer endorsement. By the time you get the pickup GVW high enough to handle that trailer you're going to be forced to take it across every scale you pass.

Remember this thread? http://bb.bc4x4.com/showthread.php?t=144120


Edit - FYI the info on the code 20 endorsement can be found here: http://www.icbc.com/driver-licensing/getting-licensed/towingrv

Thanks for the link Jon, I searched and couldn't find that info.

I was already prepared for the scale issue because of that thread. Unfortunately for my pocketbook I had to buy the big trailer because my wheeling rig was too heavy for a 7000lbs trailer.

jeeponrock
October 9th, 2009, 10:05 am
Unfortunately for my pocketbook I had to buy the big trailer because my wheeling rig was too heavy for a 7000lbs trailer.

Your rig can't be much heavier than mine. My 10k enclosed trailer still gives me 5700lb of payload. My old open deck 10k trailer was good for a couple thousand more.

Maybe your yota needs to go on a diet :p

Wil
October 9th, 2009, 10:36 am
I should clarify, when I read the rule about the 4600+kg endorsement requirement I understood it to mean that if you have a trailer capable of carrying beyond the 4600 you have to get the endorsement. When I went to Motor Vehicles they didn't tell me otherwise on this. Skidmark clarified the rule that basically you only have to have the endorsement if you carry over that which I won't be. I won't be going over with what I have now.

And yes the Toy definitely needs to go on a diet, it's a fatty.:mullet

Airfoto
October 9th, 2009, 02:48 pm
you dont need a class 3 only a class 5 with a heavy trailer endorcment which is a simple written test I believe

Wil
October 9th, 2009, 04:25 pm
you dont need a class 3 only a class 5 with a heavy trailer endorcment which is a simple written test I believe

You are right it isn't a class 3, but the written test is the Class 3 test minus any air brake questions. You also need a medical and eye test.

EXCLUSIVE 4X4
October 10th, 2009, 10:19 am
Somewhere , somtime someone should revamp ALL light duty trailer laws.
Ive towed for years and its almost impossible to be legal towing a light tandem axle trailer.

Its a bunch of crap , the last time I was stopped in the canyon by a JERK from the Ashcroft RCMP he was more worried about what it said on my reggie than whether the trailer was safe or not.
He never ewven looked at the trailer he just started going off about my truck GVW.

Its all very confusing and overlapping.
Scrap it and start again, they have big truck laws tied into light trailer laws , RCMP say diffrent than DOT guys about things and ICBC clerks dont have a clue what you really need.

Its a cash grab , nothing to do with saftey.

seatosky
October 10th, 2009, 03:43 pm
Somewhere , somtime someone should revamp ALL light duty trailer laws.
Ive towed for years and its almost impossible to be legal towing a light tandem axle trailer.


I agree, there's too much emphasis on bureaucracy and regulations than there is on actual safety... there are some very unsafe vehicles on the road that go unnoticed.

Wil
October 10th, 2009, 10:49 pm
x3 on the confusion out there. Difficult to decipher regs, big problems with Autoplan agents because the majority don't know the ins and outs of trailer reg. There seems to be a disconnect between ICBC and CVSE as well.

I did find an Autoplan agent that actually knew about this sort of thing. I called the RV place in Coquitlam and asked them what agency they used and they came back with Coquitlam Agencies on McAllistar in Port Coquitlam ( 604 - 941 - 0544 ). The fellow there knows the ins and outs of trailer reg and answered my questions and solved some issues I was having.

EXCLUSIVE 4X4
October 10th, 2009, 10:55 pm
x3 on the confusion out there. Difficult to decipher regs, big problems with Autoplan agents because the majority don't know the ins and outs of trailer reg. There seems to be a disconnect between ICBC and CVSE as well.

I did find an Autoplan agent that actually knew about this sort of thing. I called the RV place in Coquitlam and asked them what agency they used and they came back with Coquitlam Agencies on McAllistar in Port Coquitlam ( 604 - 941 - 0544 ). The fellow there knows the ins and outs of trailer reg and answered my questions and solved some issues I was having.



But .....................just when you think you have it figured out someone else will throw another hurdle at you.

brian46
October 15th, 2009, 01:06 am
I tow a 14,000lb flat deck that is loaded to the max with an F350, the truck comes from the factory with a hitch that is rated for 15,000lbs, the trailer is registered as commercial and I have my class 1 licence, as I understand the rules, as long as I do not exceed the licenced/stickered GVW on the truck, axle rating on the truck, axle rating on the trailer, it is legal to tow.

If the truck and trailer both have a licenced GVW and axle ratings and none are being exceded why would you be ticketed? The tow vehicle has a GVW which applies to itself only and so does the trailer, unless we are talking about a GCWR (gross combined vehicle weight) being exceeded?

You may however have an insurance policy that does not even cover what the vehicle is able to carry, this will get you in trouble from ICBC if you get into an accident with the insured weight being exceded, but DOT/CVSE sould only ticket you for exceeding mechanical limits.

mermaid.5
October 15th, 2009, 08:45 am
I tow a 14,000lb flat deck that is loaded to the max with an F350, the truck comes from the factory with a hitch that is rated for 15,000lbs, the trailer is registered as commercial and I have my class 1 licence, as I understand the rules, as long as I do not exceed the licenced/stickered GVW on the truck, axle rating on the truck, axle rating on the trailer, it is legal to tow.

If the truck and trailer both have a licenced GVW and axle ratings and none are being exceded why would you be ticketed? The tow vehicle has a GVW which applies to itself only and so does the trailer, unless we are talking about a GCVW (gross combined vehicle weight) being exceeded?

You may however have an insurance policy that does not even cover what the vehicle is able to carry, this will get you in trouble from ICBC if you get into an accident with the insured weight being exceded, but DOT/CVSE sould only ticket you for exceeding mechanical limits.

A commercial trailer (large plate) does not carry it's own licensed gvw. The total weight of the trailer plus whatever load is to be carried must be added to the tow vehicles licensed gvw.

Is it a cash grab?? You betcha. I call it "pay for what you weigh". The more a vehicle weighs the more damage it does to the road so therefor you pay more.

If found overweight due to licensing, you will be charged the same fine amounts as if you were over the manufacturers weight rating, and yes CVSE does that.

brian46
October 15th, 2009, 04:27 pm
A commercial trailer (large plate) does not carry it's own licensed gvw. The total weight of the trailer plus whatever load is to be carried must be added to the tow vehicles licensed gvw.

Is it a cash grab?? You betcha. I call it "pay for what you weigh". The more a vehicle weighs the more damage it does to the road so therefor you pay more.

If found overweight due to licensing, you will be charged the same fine amounts as if you were over the manufacturers weight rating, and yes CVSE does that.It is not the large plate, under GVW is says COMTRL, and the sticker is no expiry just as the comercial truck trailers. The trailer has it's own manufacturers GVW and vin plate markings with it's GVW clearly stated. It is not towed by a comercial vehicle which is required to report to scales or have GVW displayed on the outside.

If this is illegal, explain to me as to how it should be insured since I called ICBC about this issue and the response I got was that the broker was correct in how it is insured and that I am legal as long as none of the weights are exceded according to manufacturer and that ICBC uses the vehicles factory ratings on their insurance policies, since the vehicle towing is not commercial I do not need to be insured for the GCWR of the truck and trailer under the tow vehicles insured GVW since it is a GCWR not GVW. The GCWR of my truck is 26,000lbs from the manufacturer and it is not being exceeded.

I find it odd that ICBC is legally allowed to under insure you for what a manufacturer has stated a vehicle is capable to carry (if that in fact is the case), As a commercial driver I understand that commercial vehicles have a set weight and the driver is responsible for not exceeding it, but in a private vehicle we should only have to worry about exceeding mechanical limits, not an insurance companies failure to properly rate a vehicle or trailer from time of manufacture.

jeeponrock
October 15th, 2009, 04:52 pm
It is not the large plate, under GVW is says COMTRL, and the sticker is no expiry just as the comercial truck trailers. The trailer has it's own manufacturers GVW and vin plate markings with it's GVW clearly stated. It is not towed by a comercial vehicle which is required to report to scales or have GVW displayed on the outside.

If this is illegal, explain to me as to how it should be insured since I called ICBC about this issue and the response I got was that the broker was correct in how it is insured and that I am legal as long as none of the weights are exceded according to manufacturer, since the vehicle towing is not commercial I do not need to be insured for the GCWR of the truck and trailer under the tow vehicles insured GVW since it is a GCWR not GVW. The GCWR of my truck is 26,000lbs from the manufacturer and it is not being exceeded.

Go read the link I posted earlier in the thread. Then take your paperwork into a scale and talk to the CVSE people there to see what they have to say. If you don't want to make the trip, call them at the scale and they'll answer your questions. ICBC agents are clueless on this stuff. Talk to the people who are going to be writing the tickets :redneck

I thought the same way you did but unfortunately your trailer is too heavy and so you need to insure it as described by Mermaid.5

brian46
October 15th, 2009, 05:16 pm
I guess it would have to be insured as a utility trailer with the correct GVW from what was posted, but since it is a flat deck and carries a huge number of different things depending on what I am doing, I'm sure they will want it insured as commercial even though I am not running a buisness.

Wil
October 15th, 2009, 05:21 pm
.

I find it odd that ICBC is legally allowed to under insure you for what a manufacturer has stated a vehicle is capable to carry (if that in fact is the case), As a commercial driver I understand that commercial vehicles have a set weight and the driver is responsible for not exceeding it, but in a private vehicle we should only have to worry about exceeding mechanical limits, not an insurance companies failure to properly rate a vehicle or trailer from time of manufacture.

Yup don't count on your ICBC agent being able to correctly tell you what you need to know to be legal. If I hadn't talked to a few people and dug around in this forum there is no way that I would have known. I would have just walked out of the insurance agent and thought I was good.

brian46
October 15th, 2009, 08:07 pm
Yup don't count on your ICBC agent being able to correctly tell you what you need to know to be legal. If I hadn't talked to a few people and dug around in this forum there is no way that I would have known. I would have just walked out of the insurance agent and thought I was good.I know the autoplan agents are useless, but you would think when you call ICBC head office with a technical question, they would have to answer it correctly as they are a monopoly on the matter of insurance and have to know the rules, I guess they make more money telling you the wrong thing and denying your coverage when you get into an accident.

mermaid.5
October 16th, 2009, 08:51 am
Don't get me started on Autoplan agents.

ICBC does not use the manufacturers rating. Typically they use 1 1/2 times the vehicle weight. I have never seen a truck (which all trucks are commercial vehicles, hence the different plates from a car) licensed up to the manufacturers rating, unless the insured figured it out themselves.

I am also confused about you not having a large plate (same size as all cars and trucks) yet you have the non-expiry decal. That decal is only for commercial trailers (which it seems to say on your papers?) and should never be applied or issued to a small utility plate.

Personally I hate the "non-expiry" decals. The insurance does expire just like it always has except the decal doesn't have to be replaced. It makes enforcement hard and many owners think they are insured for life.

Stormin
October 16th, 2009, 10:15 am
Does anything change if you tow with a full size SUV? They have car plates.

mermaid.5
October 16th, 2009, 03:36 pm
Does anything change if you tow with a full size SUV? They have car plates.


Car plates don't carry a licensed gvw so I guess you would have to go in and buy a permit to cover the weight of the load.

That's a good question that I don't really have an answer for.

Could an SUV tow a trailer over 1400kgs without going over the manufacturer's gvw??? Most cars and suv's I have weighed are over their gvw with a full tank of gas and 4 adults inside.

Wil
October 16th, 2009, 03:52 pm
Ford Excursion is basically a 1 ton Ford SuperDuty with a full body and a 3/4 ton Suburban are 2 that come to mind.

brian46
October 16th, 2009, 05:20 pm
So, went to get my insurance changed over today, got told that I need to go to a scale and get a weight certificat, not sure why as my trailer has a vin plate and GVW stamped right on it from the manufacturer??? Either way, they told me that after I had the weigh certificate, I could change it to utility instead of commercial along with having the gvw at 14,000lbs, so I will see what happens after I get the certificate.

I have a feeling that this is just more wrong information, she also found it weird that I would want a licenced GVW on my trailer rather than just increasing the GVW on the multiple vehicles that tow this trailer.

jeeponrock
October 16th, 2009, 05:27 pm
Ford Excursion is basically a 1 ton Ford SuperDuty with a full body and a 3/4 ton Suburban are 2 that come to mind.

Chevy Avalanche is another option. With the 8.1 I think they have something like a 19k GCWR too.

There are a few guys with trucks like these hauling two rigs in a bumper pull 34'+ 14k trailer.

jeeponrock
October 16th, 2009, 07:07 pm
So, went to get my insurance changed over today, got told that I need to go to a scale and get a weight certificat, not sure why as my trailer has a vin plate and GVW stamped right on it from the manufacturer??? Either way, they told me that after I had the weigh certificate, I could change it to utility instead of commercial along with having the gvw at 14,000lbs, so I will see what happens after I get the certificate.

I have a feeling that this is just more wrong information, she also found it weird that I would want a licenced GVW on my trailer rather than just increasing the GVW on the multiple vehicles that tow this trailer.

Sounds to me like she was trying to register your trailer as a u-built. The weight certificate is required as part of that process.

Is this a flat deck or enclosed trailer?

From the reading I've done, you can only run a utility plate on a trailer with a GVW of 1400kg or under. The exception being open deck trailers that are being used for recreational purposes or horse trailers etc.

This sheet from CVSE covers which plate you need.
http://www.th.gov.bc.ca/CVSE/references_publications/trailer_towing_info_sheet.pdf

Wil
October 16th, 2009, 07:31 pm
So, went to get my insurance changed over today, got told that I need to go to a scale and get a weight certificat, not sure why as my trailer has a vin plate and GVW stamped right on it from the manufacturer??? Either way, they told me that after I had the weigh certificate, I could change it to utility instead of commercial along with having the gvw at 14,000lbs, so I will see what happens after I get the certificate.

I have a feeling that this is just more wrong information, she also found it weird that I would want a licenced GVW on my trailer rather than just increasing the GVW on the multiple vehicles that tow this trailer.

Not an expert at this but this sounds all wrong.

EXCLUSIVE 4X4
October 16th, 2009, 08:27 pm
What makes me double mad is when the cop was bitching at me about not have my trucks GVW right , he made it sound like I was just trying to get cheaper insurance.

I would gladly pay whatever the crooks want if they could assure me I was legal!

Ive tryed on 3 diffrent trailers and the harder you try to get it right ,the deeper the hole you dig gets.

Best luck I ever had was with a Ubilt flatdeck POS trailer that I put a small plate (think it cost $60 a year) , and I hauled everything every where and was never stopped.
It had to be illegal all the way.

brian46
October 16th, 2009, 10:22 pm
Sounds to me like she was trying to register your trailer as a u-built. The weight certificate is required as part of that process.

Is this a flat deck or enclosed trailer?

From the reading I've done, you can only run a utility plate on a trailer with a GVW of 1400kg or under. The exception being open deck trailers that are being used for recreational purposes or horse trailers etc.

This sheet from CVSE covers which plate you need.
http://www.th.gov.bc.ca/CVSE/references_publications/trailer_towing_info_sheet.pdfIt's a flat deck, the best I can describe it's use would be "Hobby" since it is used for hunting, fishing, camping, along with hauling around my car, truck and equipment collection, non of wich is buisness related, and usually just ends up costing me money. I even had a somewhat disassembled helicopter on it once.
I guess it's back to trying to find someone who knows what they are talking about.

jeeponrock
October 16th, 2009, 11:30 pm
It's a flat deck, the best I can describe it's use would be "Hobby" since it is used for hunting, fishing, camping, along with hauling around my car, truck and equipment collection, non of wich is buisness related, and usually just ends up costing me money. I even had a somewhat disassembled helicopter on it once.
I guess it's back to trying to find someone who knows what they are talking about.

I hear you. I'm just as frustrated by this mess. As i suggested earlier, try the people at the scales. Mermaid is obviously good at what he does and I trust his info but being a natural born skeptic I double checked with the scale guys. The CVSE people are the ones who are going to write the tickets so check with them.

brian46
October 17th, 2009, 01:53 am
I hear you. I'm just as frustrated by this mess. As i suggested earlier, try the people at the scales. Mermaid is obviously good at what he does and I trust his info but being a natural born skeptic I double checked with the scale guys. The CVSE people are the ones who are going to write the tickets so check with them.the problem comes with when you try and change it to what the CVSE guys say to do and the autoplan agent tells you thats not possible........lol, I guarantee this is what will happen.

TeeJay
October 17th, 2009, 05:04 pm
"you don't need the class 3 or the restriction 20 unless your trailer and it's load actually weigh more than 4,500 kg. It matters not what GVW you license it for, at least with regard to your driver's license."

That is wrong. If the GVW of the trailer is over 10,000 lbs then you have to have a heavy trailer endorsement, regardless of whether you only put 5,000 lbs on it, or you load it to it's capacity.

The Restriction/Code 20 is easy to get. You take the class 3 learners which is the multiple choice deal on the computer. You can then walk over to the desk and schedule a road test. The road test consists of a complete pre-trip inspection of the vehicle, and trailer, and then a 30 minute drive. I was not made to back up, I just had to drive around on the highway, then up some back roads. It wasn't hard.

To find out your GCWR on your truck to make sure you have the proper insurance, take your truck, loaded with fuel and whatever gear you're going to be taking, and your trailer, loaded over the scale, one night when it's closed. Do one axle at a time on your truck, and all of the trailer axles, add them together and you have your GCWR. Make sure that none of those numbers go over your door tag ratings for your axle weights. If you go over the scale when it's open, and you're loaded and your insurance hasn't been changed, you risk a ticket. You can also call the permit office and request a single trip permit for weight, just guess high on your weight. It's $50 for the day.

There are two types of trailers. House trailers (RV's) and flat decks. With a house trailer you DO NOT ad the weight of the trailer to your truck. Just the tongue weight, even if it's a fifth wheel. If it's a flat deck, then you add the weight of the loaded trailer to the weight of your truck to find out your GVW. It's confusing, but i just went through all this horse **** for 3 months trying to figure it out. At the same time, I was trying to raise the rating of my truck from a 3/4 ton to a 1 ton.

Good luck, and if you have any questions PM me.

brian46
October 17th, 2009, 11:32 pm
There are two types of trailers. House trailers (RV's) and flat decks. With a house trailer you DO NOT ad the weight of the trailer to your truck. Just the tongue weight, even if it's a fifth wheel. If it's a flat deck, then you add the weight of the loaded trailer to the weight of your truck to find out your GVW. It's confusing, but i just went through all this horse **** for 3 months trying to figure it out. At the same time, I was trying to raise the rating of my truck from a 3/4 ton to a 1 ton. how can there be only 2 designated types of trailers??? how about enclosed trailers? car haulers? horse? cattle?utility? etc.

I know for a fact now that any trailer with the comercial designation even if used for personal use has to have it's weight covered by the towing vehicles GVW, Utility trailers carry the small plate and have their own licenced GVW, so the tow vehicles does not have to be increased.

TeeJay
October 18th, 2009, 11:23 am
you are correct that there are many subtypes of trailers. The two types of trailers, I forget the class designations (I think they are 1 and 4), cover cargo trailers (flat decks, car trailers etc) and house trailers (rv's, enclosed trailers, horse trailers) Cargo trailers generally have their weights changed frequently due to the amount and type of cargo loaded, whereas RV trailers, and horse/enclosed do not. This is information I was given by CVSE and ICBC while researching it. Also note, that if you tow ANY trailer for commercial use (even a quad trailer), you need to have a restriction/code 20 on your license, or a class 3 or 1 licence.

mermaid.5
October 19th, 2009, 08:54 am
"you don't need the class 3 or the restriction 20 unless your trailer and it's load actually weigh more than 4,500 kg. It matters not what GVW you license it for, at least with regard to your driver's license."

That is wrong. If the GVW of the trailer is over 10,000 lbs then you have to have a heavy trailer endorsement, regardless of whether you only put 5,000 lbs on it, or you load it to it's capacity.

The Restriction/Code 20 is easy to get. You take the class 3 learners which is the multiple choice deal on the computer. You can then walk over to the desk and schedule a road test. The road test consists of a complete pre-trip inspection of the vehicle, and trailer, and then a 30 minute drive. I was not made to back up, I just had to drive around on the highway, then up some back roads. It wasn't hard.

To find out your GCWR on your truck to make sure you have the proper insurance, take your truck, loaded with fuel and whatever gear you're going to be taking, and your trailer, loaded over the scale, one night when it's closed. Do one axle at a time on your truck, and all of the trailer axles, add them together and you have your GCWR. Make sure that none of those numbers go over your door tag ratings for your axle weights. If you go over the scale when it's open, and you're loaded and your insurance hasn't been changed, you risk a ticket. You can also call the permit office and request a single trip permit for weight, just guess high on your weight. It's $50 for the day.

There are two types of trailers. House trailers (RV's) and flat decks. With a house trailer you DO NOT ad the weight of the trailer to your truck. Just the tongue weight, even if it's a fifth wheel. If it's a flat deck, then you add the weight of the loaded trailer to the weight of your truck to find out your GVW. It's confusing, but i just went through all this horse **** for 3 months trying to figure it out. At the same time, I was trying to raise the rating of my truck from a 3/4 ton to a 1 ton.

Good luck, and if you have any questions PM me.

Here is the actual wording of the law so everyone isn't confused by teejays' misinformation;

From the MVAR;

(c) Class 7 licence, subject to the applicable condition under section 30.10 (4) and restriction under section 30.11 (1), permits operation of

(i) a 2 axle motor vehicle other than a motorcycle, but does not include a bus, school bus, special activity bus, special vehicle, taxi or ambulance, when used for its purpose as intended by design.

(ii) a 2 axle motor vehicle or 2 axle tow car with towed vehicles if the towed vehicles in that combination do not exceed 4 600 kg,

(iii) a motor home or motor home with towed vehicles if the towed vehicles in that combination do not exceed 4 600 kg,

(iv) a limited speed motorcycle, all terrain vehicle, all terrain cycle or utility vehicle,

(v) a construction vehicle, or

(vi) despite subparagraph (i), a school bus that

(A) is a passenger vehicle as defined in section 11.01 (1), and

(B) has a seating capacity of not more than 10 passengers including the driver;

(g) Class 5 licence permits operation of a motor vehicle or combination of vehicles for which a Class 7 licence is required

Note that is says the vehicles must EXCEED 4600kgs not rated to be over.

TeeJay
October 19th, 2009, 11:39 am
straight from the CVSE inspector I talked to at the Vernon scales:

trailer 10,000 LB or more (4545.5 kg, probably rounded up to 4,600[this is my guess, so don't take my word for it]) = Class 3 or Rest. 20
So, the MVAR is stating exactly what I said.

Commercial use:
5,000 KG = NSC #
5,500 KG = Report to scale
8,200 KG - Require semi annual inspections, trailer annual
14,600 = log book, written pre-trip

If you're still unsure, call the scale. If you want the number of the scale closest to you, let me know.

Wil
October 19th, 2009, 12:36 pm
Teejay, Mermaid is a CVSE Inspector and Skidmark is a retired RCMP traffic, do you think it's possible you misunderstood what you were told?

mermaid.5
October 19th, 2009, 01:03 pm
straight from the CVSE inspector I talked to at the Vernon scales:

trailer 10,000 LB or more (4545.5 kg, probably rounded up to 4,600[this is my guess, so don't take my word for it]) = Class 3 or Rest. 20
So, the MVAR is stating exactly what I said.

Commercial use:
5,000 KG = NSC #
5,500 KG = Report to scale
8,200 KG - Require semi annual inspections, trailer annual
14,600 = log book, written pre-trip

If you're still unsure, call the scale. If you want the number of the scale closest to you, let me know.


No teejay the MVAR does not state what you said. You said. "That is wrong. If the GVW of the trailer is over 10,000 lbs then you have to have a heavy trailer endorsement, regardless of whether you only put 5,000 lbs on it, or you load it to it's capacity."

You can easily see that the MVAR makes no reference to what the GVW of the trailer is. It states "exceeding 4600kgs" not having a rating exceeding 4600kgs.

Also all the weights you posted need to be exceeded before what you posted applies.

TeeJay
October 19th, 2009, 01:37 pm
k, so my understanding of the MVAR rule is that I could go out and get a 30 foot tridem trailer, and load a dirt bike on it, and tow it around without a heavy trailer endorsement as long as the trailer and the load doesn't weigh more than 4,600 KG, but the trailer is rated for 14,000 KG?

That is not at all what I was told by the guy I bought my trailer from, ICBC and CVSE.

Not that it applies to me anyway, as I tow my trailer commercially and I often load it to 8,000 KG or more.

The biggest headache I had figuring all this stuff out, is I would get a different answer from everybody I would talk to, including two different CVSE inspectors, ICBC agents, and different departments would contradict eachother etc. I just went and got my restriction 20 to be on the safe side, I always fill out a pre-trip and a log book, just to be on the safe side, and I get my truck and trailer inspected, and insure my truck with the trailers loaded weight taken into account...just to be on the safe side.

The best example of government (ICBC) bureaucracy at it's finest:
When I finally got the inspection done to raise the GVW of my truck from a 3/4 ton to a 1 ton, I was over the 8,600 KG limit, so I took it into a designated inspection facility. The inspection was completed and in order for them to fill out the passed form, I had to raise my GVW on my insurance. I went to the insurance office to do this, and was told they couldn't raise the GVW on my insurance without an inspection form. I was stuck. Luckily the autoplan agent was able to call the inspection facility and get the number off the inspection sticker they were going to give me, so she could use that to filll out my insurance papers and raise my GVW, so I could take those papers back to the inspection facility and get the forms finished there.

All of this was done after I got a fine at the scale, because I didn't include the weight of my loaded trailer to my licensed vehicle weight on my insurance...after I had asked several agents at various departments how to tow my trailer legally. Luckilly the scale attendant cut me a break, gave me the lowest fine and allowed me to get a single trip permit to complete my delivery. It was while at that scale that I was given the information I posted previously. It's all written down on a piece of paper the CVSE inspector gave me.

brian46
October 19th, 2009, 01:42 pm
No teejay the MVAR does not state what you said. You said. "That is wrong. If the GVW of the trailer is over 10,000 lbs then you have to have a heavy trailer endorsement, regardless of whether you only put 5,000 lbs on it, or you load it to it's capacity."

You can easily see that the MVAR makes no reference to what the GVW of the trailer is. It states "exceeding 4600kgs" not having a rating exceeding 4600kgs.

Also all the weights you posted need to be exceeded before what you posted applies.I understand the weight limits and licence and endorsements, I am fine with that.
How do I get my comercially rated/insured trailer changed to a utility with an insured GVW? It is a factory built trailer with tags that contain the gvw, serial #, ect. Do I just need to bring the trailer with me to an autoplan and have them sight it, or does it require some sort of inspection? I am getting a number of different answers depending on which autoplan I go to and want to make sure I only have to do this once and get it right. When I purchased the trailer new, I explained to them what I was doing with it and obviously they didn't know how to insure it right either.

The trailer is towed by different vehicles, so raising the GVW on all vehicles that tow it including the ones of the people I lend the trailer to is not an option. I need it insured with it's own GVW (utility plate) which should be possible since it is not used for buisness.

TeeJay
October 19th, 2009, 01:45 pm
good luck! Your best bet is to go to an autoplan agent, and have them call Broker Inquiries. If it can be done, they will be the ones to tell the agent how.

Road Dog
October 19th, 2009, 01:54 pm
I'm just curious about your example. My vehicle registration includes a net weight and [licenced] GVW. I can change the licenced GVW to anything I want since it's the total weight including truck, [commercial] trailer and payload. it might be in the computer but there's no GVW on my registration, just the door sticker.

Second, my 1T has a GVW of 5,000kg. An 8,600kg GVW is way bigger than a 1T truck.

TeeJay
October 19th, 2009, 02:06 pm
actually, my truck is insured at 10,500 KG. This takes into account the GVW of the truck (what I can haul in the bed...5th wheel tongue weight). I got this by running over the scale with the truck loaded with fuel, equipment in the toolbox and myself. I added the front axle weight to the rear axle weight and got my Tare. Next, I looked at the door tag to find out my maximum allowable TOWING weight. I added this to the Tare. Next I ran over the scale with my truck, and trailer loaded. I added the front axle, rear axle and trailer weight to find out the GVW, or GCWR of my truck and trailer. My truck can carry 10,500 pounds, and tow 12,000 pounds. Together that is 10,500 KG. The Tare weight of my truck is roughly 4,700 KG and my trailer is roughly 1,800. So, when I load my trailer I can't exceed 4,000 KG of cargo.

Keep in mind, there's GVWR, GCWR, FAWR, RAWR on your door sticker. My door sticker is wrong because it's for a 3/4 ton that has been converted to a 1 ton dually. I had it re-inspected and certified as a 1 ton, then I had to research the ratings of my truck on the internet, and, luckilly I found one on the road once and copied his information off his door tag.

Stormin
October 19th, 2009, 06:11 pm
I understand the weight limits and licence and endorsements, I am fine with that.
How do I get my comercially rated/insured trailer changed to a utility with an insured GVW? It is a factory built trailer with tags that contain the gvw, serial #, ect. Do I just need to bring the trailer with me to an autoplan and have them sight it, or does it require some sort of inspection? I am getting a number of different answers depending on which autoplan I go to and want to make sure I only have to do this once and get it right. When I purchased the trailer new, I explained to them what I was doing with it and obviously they didn't know how to insure it right either.

The trailer is towed by different vehicles, so raising the GVW on all vehicles that tow it including the ones of the people I lend the trailer to is not an option. I need it insured with it's own GVW (utility plate) which should be possible since it is not used for buisness.

It looks like the answer is to tow with an SUV. I went into autoplan today with a bunch of questions, they were soon overwhelmed and got ICBC on the phone.
Basicly a trailer with com. plates has to stay that way. An SUV with car plates has to stay that way (unless you tear out all the seats,bla bla bla...) So, since you can't register a gvw or gcvw on a SUV, ICBC will recognize the factory assigned gvw and gcvw found on the VIN tag (nothing to change on your insurance). If you can stay under those numbers and not exceed 4600kg then your good to go.
I'm still going to call ICBC myself tomorrow and make sure.

brian46
October 20th, 2009, 01:09 am
It looks like the answer is to tow with an SUV. I went into autoplan today with a bunch of questions, they were soon overwhelmed and got ICBC on the phone.
Basicly a trailer with com. plates has to stay that way. An SUV with car plates has to stay that way (unless you tear out all the seats,bla bla bla...) So, since you can't register a gvw or gcvw on a SUV, ICBC will recognize the factory assigned gvw and gcvw found on the VIN tag (nothing to change on your insurance). If you can stay under those numbers and not exceed 4600kg then your good to go.
I'm still going to call ICBC myself tomorrow and make sure.That doesn't make sense at all, I have friends who have bought similar trailers and the person who registered theirs from the start did it as a utility with a set gvw rating like the one stamped on the trailer, why mine was done as commercial god only knows why...., but for me to be legal I will have to get it changed over, If that means a full inspection or whatever, so be it. My main concern is that after I spend a bunch of money they will say oops and I actully have to do something different to get it switched over. Would be nice to find the actuall process in writing so I am not relying on different stories from autoplan agents.

mermaid.5
October 20th, 2009, 08:40 am
Next, I looked at the door tag to find out my maximum allowable TOWING weight.

I had it re-inspected and certified as a 1 ton, then I had to research the ratings of my truck on the internet, and, luckilly I found one on the road once and copied his information off his door tag.

A couple of points, first legally there is no maximum allowable towing weight for any given truck. If you can get the tongue weight so that it doesn't put the rear axle overweight and your licensed GVW is high enough you could tow Vancouver with an S-10. The maximum allowable towing weight found on newer trucks is more for warranty purposes so you don't burn out your tranny trying to tow Vancouver.

Second, without an engineers certificate you cannot re-certify a truck to carry more weight than the original manufactures rating. You may have changed out axles and leaves and maybe even the brakes but it still does not make it a 1 ton. Licensed GVW bears no relationship to manufacturers rating.

mermaid.5
October 20th, 2009, 08:42 am
That doesn't make sense at all, I have friends who have bought similar trailers and the person who registered theirs from the start did it as a utility with a set gvw rating like the one stamped on the trailer, why mine was done as commercial god only knows why...., but for me to be legal I will have to get it changed over, If that means a full inspection or whatever, so be it. My main concern is that after I spend a bunch of money they will say oops and I actully have to do something different to get it switched over. Would be nice to find the actuall process in writing so I am not relying on different stories from autoplan agents.

There are only certain types of trailers that can have an increased GVW utility plate. Car type trailers are one but if it is a flat deck that can haul anything I doubt they will do it. You are stuck with increasing the towing units GVW andéor buying increase GVW permits.

EXCLUSIVE 4X4
October 20th, 2009, 11:16 am
Lets not forget the tire ratings either............
After you think you have everything figured out , look at your tire rating and then you can buy new tires.

Im getting more pissed by the moment reading this thread.
Theres so much mis-information and conflicting information out there.
Its almost as if its not really legal at all to tow a small trailer.

Something needs to be done to level the playing field when it comes to small trailers.
Theres no need for it to be this confusing or hard to complie with.

Im not anti goverment but this looks like a cash cow for them , which I could care less about if there was ever a finish to the process.

This topic copuld almost use its own website , get a few RCMP , CVSE and ICBC agents online answering questions.
It would be nice to have 3 answers to 1 question.

If I knew more about it Id try and put something together.
It would be nice to be able to go to a website and say "Ive got a flatdeck trailer that weighs ...blah blah ...." and be able to get a answer (Or 3).

brian46
October 20th, 2009, 12:32 pm
There are only certain types of trailers that can have an increased GVW utility plate. Car type trailers are one but if it is a flat deck that can haul anything I doubt they will do it. You are stuck with increasing the towing units GVW andéor buying increase GVW permits.It is not an increased GVW, I want the same GVW as what the manufacturer has put on the trailer, it was just set up wrong from the start, should have been a utility not commercial.

Wil
October 20th, 2009, 12:47 pm
I still don't think you can get a utility plate for your 14,000lbs flat deck, if you do manage to change it I think that will come back to bite you in the butt bigtime at some point.

I still find the CVSE FAQ confusing but it's worth a read again : http://www.th.gov.bc.ca/CVSE/references_publications/trailer_towing_info_sheet.pdf

brian46
October 20th, 2009, 02:14 pm
I still don't think you can get a utility plate for your 14,000lbs flat deck, if you do manage to change it I think that will come back to bite you in the butt bigtime at some point.

I still find the CVSE FAQ confusing but it's worth a read again : http://www.th.gov.bc.ca/CVSE/references_publications/trailer_towing_info_sheet.pdfI'm not sure why there would be an issue, friend has his flat deck insured with utility plates, 10,000lb GVW as it has two 5,000lb axles, it does not give a specific use on his papers just under vehicle type it says FLDCK. The difference in weight on my trailer should just be a higher rate should it not?

I have read the link you have posted many times, and it says it is possible to get a utility trailer with more than a 1400lb gvw.

Wil
October 20th, 2009, 02:53 pm
I just don't have the answers. I do know that it's 100% possible to leave an ICBC agent without being in compliance with BC road law because I did it and drove around for a week or so until I got my act together.

brian46
October 22nd, 2009, 02:16 pm
There are only certain types of trailers that can have an increased GVW utility plate. Car type trailers are one but if it is a flat deck that can haul anything I doubt they will do it. You are stuck with increasing the towing units GVW andéor buying increase GVW permits.

Ok, so to just add to the confusion, went to another autoplan and explained to them my issues, and they said since my primary use for the trailer is hauling vehicles, they could put it under a utility plate as a car trailer. Now my question is, If I have anything else on the deck than a car or truck, what happens? Is it like car insurance where you get 6 days a month or something to do as you please, or are you restricted to vehicles period?

The reason I ask is that I haul my rock crawler and camper on it, and sometimes just the crawler with quads, bikes, skidoos, etc. Would vehicle related parts be ok on a car trailer? I very rarely haul anything that is not a vehicle, recreational vehicle or vehicle related parts.

I am at the point where selling the camper and trailer is looking like the best thing to do and buying one of those enclosed car haulers with living space up front like you see at the race tracks, at least it can be done on a utility plate without the cost of cranking up my GVW so I need yearly inspections and an insane insurance rate.

rezdiver
October 22nd, 2009, 06:28 pm
"I am at the point where selling the camper and trailer is looking like the best thing to do and buying one of those enclosed car haulers with living space up front like you see at the race tracks, at least it can be done on a utility plate without the cost of cranking up my GVW so I need yearly inspections and an insane insurance rate."

I see what this is all about. Looks like you are just looking for an excuse to upgrade, if the wife is holding you back i say you are totally illegal and you need a fully enclosed carhauler with a partyspace up front. LOL

brian46
October 22nd, 2009, 07:00 pm
No, not by any means, Just want to find out what the rules are so I am legal with what I have.

Rasing the GVW on one tow vehicle would be fine, but there are 3 trucks alone in my family that pull the trailer from time to time along with friends that borrow it. Rasing the GVW on all those vehicles is a huge cost along with friends not being able to borrow it because they are not legal. If I was explained all this by the dealer who sold the trailer, or the original autoplan broker who registered it, I would not have bought it unless it was on a utility plate with a licenced GVW of it's own that is legal for what I use it for.

mermaid.5
October 23rd, 2009, 09:01 am
The way I understand it is you are only covered for towing cars. The few instances where you can increase a utility plates licensed gvw over 1400kgs are always commodity specific.

I think your question is best answered by an Autoplan agent (unfortunately). They do always seem to allow a few days a month outside what the policy is for so it is worth checking on.

bushpilotmexico
October 26th, 2009, 05:59 pm
I'm getting in on this thread a little late...bought a 2002 Okanagan 5th wheel this May, licensed it and bought insurance. The wife and I drove 8000 miles this summer over 2 months with the 5th wheel in tow behind our 2003 Dodge Ram 3500 dually.

Just found out from a friend that I don't have a heavy trailer endorsement on my class 5 driver's license and can't legally tow the 5th wheel (it has a GVWR of 6108 kg).

Nobody told me neither the dealer who sold it to me nor when I bought the license and insurance.

I assume that when the 5th wheel was attached I was driving this summer without insurance?

I wrote the written test this morning and managed to pass....got my learner's permit. Now I can't drive the unit without an equal or higher license holder in the right seat.

How many people are on the roads in BC with heavy 5th wheels who haven't got a clue that they are breaking the law and risk a lack of insurance if they cause an accident?


Who is responsible for informing the public?

Wil
October 26th, 2009, 06:54 pm
How many people are on the roads in BC with heavy 5th wheels who haven't got a clue that they are breaking the law and risk a lack of insurance if they cause an accident?


Who is responsible for informing the public?

Quite a few people running around with the wrong plates or endorsements I would think. The way the system goes now you are responsible for your own education on this matter, there are no safeguards from ICBC on this matter.

mermaid.5
October 26th, 2009, 08:56 pm
I'm getting in on this thread a little late...bought a 2002 Okanagan 5th wheel this May, licensed it and bought insurance. The wife and I drove 8000 miles this summer over 2 months with the 5th wheel in tow behind our 2003 Dodge Ram 3500 dually.

Just found out from a friend that I don't have a heavy trailer endorsement on my class 5 driver's license and can't legally tow the 5th wheel (it has a GVWR of 6108 kg).

Nobody told me neither the dealer who sold it to me nor when I bought the license and insurance.

I assume that when the 5th wheel was attached I was driving this summer without insurance?

I wrote the written test this morning and managed to pass....got my learner's permit. Now I can't drive the unit without an equal or higher license holder in the right seat.

How many people are on the roads in BC with heavy 5th wheels who haven't got a clue that they are breaking the law and risk a lack of insurance if they cause an accident?


Who is responsible for informing the public?

The thing I have heard in court over and over is due diligence. "What did you do sir to inform yourself of the rules of the road?" Most people wouldn't be able to answer that they have ever done anything to learn the rules of the road other than listening to something a friend told them.

First off, you may not be breaking any laws. If you re-read what was posted earlier you will see that it doesn't matter what it is rated for, it is based off what it actually weighs. In your case, if it is over, there is a restriction 51 specifically for RV's that doesn't include everything that the restriction 20 does (at least that is how I remember the difference).

jeeponrock
October 26th, 2009, 09:40 pm
I'm getting in on this thread a little late...bought a 2002 Okanagan 5th wheel this May, licensed it and bought insurance. The wife and I drove 8000 miles this summer over 2 months with the 5th wheel in tow behind our 2003 Dodge Ram 3500 dually.

Just found out from a friend that I don't have a heavy trailer endorsement on my class 5 driver's license and can't legally tow the 5th wheel (it has a GVWR of 6108 kg).

Nobody told me neither the dealer who sold it to me nor when I bought the license and insurance.

I assume that when the 5th wheel was attached I was driving this summer without insurance?

I wrote the written test this morning and managed to pass....got my learner's permit. Now I can't drive the unit without an equal or higher license holder in the right seat.

You could schedule the road test right away and have your full license before your next trip ;)



How many people are on the roads in BC with heavy 5th wheels who haven't got a clue that they are breaking the law and risk a lack of insurance if they cause an accident?

A lot unfortunately. Sadly even more people overload their trucks. For example, the tow capacity on your 2003 Dodge 3500 varies between 10,450lb and 16,200lb depending on the configuration of the truck (rough numbers based on the trailer life guide (http://www.trailerlife.com/images/downloads/03towingguide.pdf). So you could be overloaded before you even fill the tanks on that trailer.

Salesmen usually don't say a word about weight ratings etc. There are some honest ones out there but most don't want to loose the sale and the reality is, most consumers think their trucks can tow anything you can hook to them.


First off, you may not be breaking any laws. If you re-read what was posted earlier you will see that it doesn't matter what it is rated for, it is based off what it actually weighs. In your case, if it is over, there is a restriction 51 specifically for RV's that doesn't include everything that the restriction 20 does (at least that is how I remember the difference).

I posted a link to ICBC's page on restriction 20 and 51 back in post #4.
http://www.icbc.com/driver-licensing/getting-licensed/towingrv

In the case of an heavy house trailer, you need the restriction 51 once your trailer weighs more that 4600kg. So as Mermaid says, go weigh it to make sure but given the 6108kg GVWR I'm pretty sure your trailer weighs more than that.

bushpilotmexico
October 26th, 2009, 09:56 pm
First off, you may not be breaking any laws. If you re-read what was posted earlier you will see that it doesn't matter what it is rated for, it is based off what it actually weighs. In your case, if it is over, there is a restriction 51 specifically for RV's that doesn't include everything that the restriction 20 does (at least that is how I remember the difference).


I appreciate your response.....now the Class 3 Learner Drivers License that I was issued says under RESTRICTIONS/ENDORSEMENTS 21 51

To the left of my signature is imprinted NOTE: QUALIFIED SUPERVISOR REQUIRED

What is the definition of RESTRICTION 51?

I can only assume that I must have in the right seat a person with either the heavy trailer endorsement or a higher license when I move the rig on to the highway.

I don't need the driving practice but would like to at least be able to drive the rig to the facility for my road test without having to inconvenience someone or ask them to take time from work.

It's kind of crazy when you often see some old 80 year old geezer wheeling down the road in a 38 foot Class A dragging a full size car behind and not needing any kind of endorsement to his license unless his coach has air brakes....what's the logic?


I called ICBC and the agent said that (believe it if you will) if I had been driving the rig last summer and had an accident they would pay the claim even though I did not have the heavy trailer endorsement because my argument would be that I was never told. Personally I think they would drop you like a hot potato

She said that now I have written the test and have the learner permit I now acknowledge responsibility and all insurance claims would be denied.

bushpilotmexico
October 26th, 2009, 10:10 pm
Now that I have studied my learner license I think she has given me the wrong one as it refers to ENDORSEMENTS 21 51

Endorsement 21 is for a house trailer and the license actually says HOUSE TRAILER COMBINATION ONLY

I told her I had a 5th wheel and that should be ENDORSEMENT 20. Correct me if I am wrong?

jeeponrock
October 26th, 2009, 10:17 pm
Now that I have studied my learner license I think she has given me the wrong one as it refers to ENDORSEMENTS 21 51

Endorsement 21 is for a house trailer and the license actually says HOUSE TRAILER COMBINATION ONLY

I told her I had a 5th wheel and that should be ENDORSEMENT 20. Correct me if I am wrong?

For a RV 5th wheel you want endorsement 51.

http://www.icbc.com/driver-licensing/getting-licensed/types-licences


endorsement 20 works as well but then you need a regular medical test. Not worth it unless you plan on hauling for commercial purposes.

bushpilotmexico
October 26th, 2009, 10:22 pm
So they must assume that a 5th wheel is classified as a house trailer and the learner permit I was issued is correct?

I don't need the heavy trailer endorsement?

jeeponrock
October 27th, 2009, 11:50 pm
So they must assume that a 5th wheel is classified as a house trailer and the learner permit I was issued is correct?
I don't know the exact legal definition ICBC uses but simply put a house trailer is something with a toilet, a place to cook and to sleep. So a house trailer could be either a 5th wheel or a bumper pull or a goose neck trailer. If it says endorsement 51 on your learners then I'd say you got the right thing. It's what you need to pull a heavy house trailer.


I don't need the heavy trailer endorsement? The heavy trailer endorsement (20) is what you need to pull any kind of heavy trailer. A dump trailer, a bumper pull or 5th wheel flat deck equipment trailer, a big enclosed trailer, etc. It also covers house trailers. It's meant more for commercial use though and comes with a requirement to get a regular medical check.

EXCLUSIVE 4X4
October 28th, 2009, 10:36 pm
Are you sure about this house trailer defenition?

When I asked they were talking about a RV license but at no time did they call it a house trailer .

I have a friend who pulls house trailers and he needs a special license to pull them.

I dont think you can pull a 14'x70' house trailer using your RV license?

jeeponrock
October 29th, 2009, 07:03 am
Are you sure about this house trailer defenition?

When I asked they were talking about a RV license but at no time did they call it a house trailer .

I have a friend who pulls house trailers and he needs a special license to pull them.

I dont think you can pull a 14'x70' house trailer using your RV license?

There is a big difference between a recreational "house trailer" (ICBC's words not mine) and a mobile home :redneck

This thread is all about recreational stuff. If you want to pull mobile homes around you're going to need at least a medium duty truck and a commercial license.

bushpilotmexico
October 29th, 2009, 02:29 pm
Hey guys, I appreciate all your input and my driver's test is scheduled for this coming Monday in Kelowna. I found a friend with the 51 endorsement on his Class 5 driver license who is going to accompany me just to stay legal and at least have some insurance on the road.

My truck is a 2003 Dodge Ram dually 4x4, lift kit in the front, MBRP exhaust system, pilar on driver's side showing tranny temp, manifold pressure and lastly EGT. I had a BD exhaust brake installed just after I bought the truck last May. I also have BD's Ultra Tuner which under the Tow/Performance boosted my hp to just over 300 and gave me 650 ft lbs of torque.

Being a 68 year old codger and knowing that Dodge doesn't have the best reputation for trannys I won't be going any drag racing.

brian46
October 29th, 2009, 06:11 pm
a recreational trailer is under a small plate that carries it's own GVW is it not? You should not have to raise the GVW on your truck in this case unless it is a bad design which puts allot of it's weight on the tow vehicle. You will either need a min of a class 3 licence or the code 51 on your licence for a heavy RV trailer from what I know.

bushpilotmexico
October 29th, 2009, 09:57 pm
a recreational trailer is under a small plate that carries it's own GVW is it not? You should not have to raise the GVW on your truck in this case unless it is a bad design which puts allot of it's weight on the tow vehicle. You will either need a min of a class 3 licence or the code 51 on your licence for a heavy RV trailer from what I know.


The 5th wheel has it's own GVWR which in my case is 6280 kg (13,816 lbs)....the pin weight is 1900 lbs.

The towing capacity of my truck is listed at 21,000 lbs. The GVWR is 12,000 lbs, the curb weight of the truck is 7380 lbs which doesn't include passengers or load. The GVW is the truck, the passengers and load and the 1900 lb pin weight also becomes a part of the GVW.

The payload of my truck is listed at 4600 lbs (curb weight of 7380 + payload of 4600 lbs = 11,980 or the GVWR which is close to the listed 12,000 lbs) subtract the pin weight of 1900 lbs (part of the load) and my payload becomes 2600 lbs.

The maximum trailer weight that I can tow is listed at 13,450 lbs. If I put myself and the wife in the cab our total weight is 336 lbs, we'll add another 200 lbs for gear plus the pin weight of 1900 lbs = a GVW of 9640 lbs or 2360 lbs less than the GVWR of 12,000 lbs.

My maximum towing capacity is 21,000 lbs and if I am correct that is the GCVWR or Gross Combined Vehicle Weight Rating.

So if we subtract 9640 lbs (my GVW) from 21,000 lbs we get 11,360 lbs which would be the maximum weight of the 5th wheel that I can tow. My 5th wheel manufacturer lists the curb weight of my unit at 10,940 lbs so I guess my legal payload would only be 420 lbs (guess I had better leave the weights and barbells at home!).

If my calculations are flawed perhaps someone might be able to set me straight?

jeeponrock
October 29th, 2009, 11:59 pm
My 5th wheel manufacturer lists the curb weight of my unit at 10,940 lbs so I guess my legal payload would only be 420 lbs (guess I had better leave the weights and barbells at home!).

If my calculations are flawed perhaps someone might be able to set me straight?

I'm too tired to think about the weights but I will say that the manufacturers weight for your RV is typically a dry weight. Thats before you add propane, water, and the usual necessities that one takes for a camping trip. Get your RV loaded and take it across the scales (wait until the scale is closed to be safe ;) ). FYI - 50 gallons of water is roughly 420lbs).

This guide will tell you how to calculate the weights properly.
http://www.th.gov.bc.ca/CVSE/vehicle_inspections/PDF/080530_Rec_Vehicle_GVWR_brake_DL.pdf

Road Dog
October 30th, 2009, 09:30 am
My maximum towing capacity is 21,000 lbs and if I am correct that is the GCVWR or Gross Combined Vehicle Weight Rating.

So if we subtract 9640 lbs (my GVW) from 21,000 lbs we get 11,360 lbs which would be the maximum weight of the 5th wheel that I can tow. My 5th wheel manufacturer lists the curb weight of my unit at 10,940 lbs so I guess my legal payload would only be 420 lbs (guess I had better leave the weights and barbells at home!).

If my calculations are flawed perhaps someone might be able to set me straight?The GCVWR is a manufacturer's recommendation but you can license it for anything you want. The only way to know your weights is to load 'er up and go thought a scale (after hours the scales are left ON so it's easy to do). When I was looking at campers last years they had switched to listing WET weights since so many people were buying campers at their payload limit DRY. I noticed a lot of 5ths had a really small payload (GVW - curb weight) but I have no idea what's going on.

brian46
October 31st, 2009, 10:35 am
Just an update.

After getting my trailer inspected after multiple lengthy conversations with the ICBC Licencing dept, My trailer is now insured under a flat deck low boy car trailer like it was originally manufactured, it is now on a utility plate, and has a licenced 6400kg GVW.

Road Dog
October 31st, 2009, 05:08 pm
Congratulations. When I read other forums about truck/trailer licensing down South -- where each state does it's own thing -- BC is an oasis of sanity.

brian46
November 1st, 2009, 01:34 am
Congratulations. When I read other forums about truck/trailer licensing down South -- where each state does it's own thing -- BC is an oasis of sanity.Here isn't much better, I was told by multiple brokers that what I was trying to do/did was impossible, Even had a couple brokers call ICBC for info and they too said that it was not possible along with ICBC confirming their story.

jeeponrock
November 1st, 2009, 09:21 am
Congrats! So who do i need to talk to about getting my trailer changed? :D

Road Dog
November 1st, 2009, 09:24 am
Yesterday a friend showed me a printout from the secret Autoplan manual about utility plate licensing. A UTILITY plate can be used for any trailer with a GVW under 1,400kg and there's a table for over 1,400. Trailers of a certain type (e.g. automotive, boat, travel (RV), and some others) for personal or recreational use get a utility plate. It didn't mention a max GVW.

brian46
November 1st, 2009, 10:54 am
Congrats! So who do i need to talk to about getting my trailer changed? :D You just need an inspection and then the fun begins with finding a broker that knows what they are doing. The biggest problem I had was that the broker and ICBC thougt I wanted to change the manufacturers lable on the trailer, mine was manufactured as a flat deck low boy equipment and car trailer, which is what basically every flat deck trailer with ramps and such is designed for. So I basically said to ICBC and the broker " why cant I register it as a car trailer like it was built for" In the end I found someone who knew what they were doing.

Wil
November 1st, 2009, 11:16 am
In the end I found someone who knew what they were doing.

Or found an ICBC agent that didn't know what they were doing but agreed with your arguement?:whiteflag:

On a serious note I'm glad you were able to get this done! Does your deck just have ramps (open down the center) or is it a full wood deck?

What happens when you carry something other than a vehicle, does it stop being a car trailer?

brian46
November 1st, 2009, 12:40 pm
Or found an ICBC agent that didn't know what they were doing but agreed with your arguement?:whiteflag:

On a serious note I'm glad you were able to get this done! Does your deck just have ramps (open down the center) or is it a full wood deck?

What happens when you carry something other than a vehicle, does it stop being a car trailer?They have an ICBC guidline for an auto trailer, so they sight the trailer and see if it fits their guidelines, my trailer has steel ramps and a wood plank deck with a 4ft steel beavertail. I think what the manufacturer labels the trailer as is a huge help. If you have the original sale reciept with "car trailer" in the name from the manufacturer, who is ICBC to argue with the builder? That would be the same as ICBC saying a GMC youkon is not an SUV.

What happens when you put a car on a flat deck trailer, does it not become a car trailer and you are not insured? We can go on about this for days, I don't have the exact answers, I was lead to believe that it is like a vehicle, you insure it for what you do with it most of the time, If you happen to haul something else on it once or twice a month there is not a problem.

It find it odd that a car or truck is insured using the manufacturers designations and you can pile just about anything into or on it except for controlled goods without proper permits. Yet from what we are lead to believe about trailers is that if they are insured as a car, horse, RV, etc that it is an absolute which can not carry anything else ever. If this is the case, why is there not a special catagory for toy haulers? they fall under an RV because they have living space, yet the can carry (quads, bikes, skidoos, even small vehicles)

Owlman
October 18th, 2010, 03:21 pm
i'm going through all this crap trying to get legal.

go to the autoplan agent and tell them to look in the autoplan manual, volume 2 section 1.9.
i clearly explains much to my piss off that you need to show an inspection certificate to change from a class 6 commercial trailer to a class 4 recreational automobile trailer with a gvw of 1401kg+

the show 2 pictures of automobile trailer, the recreational one looks just like the u-haul style ones with open deck, the commercial is the double decker style you see behind semi's.

no idea what happens if you haul some cement blocks on your "automobile" trailer from time to time.

if you don't have an inspection cretificate (which I don't) you will have to get it inspected.

jeeponrock
October 19th, 2010, 02:23 am
i'm going through all this crap trying to get legal.

go to the autoplan agent and tell them to look in the autoplan manual, volume 2 section 1.9.
i clearly explains much to my piss off that you need to show an inspection certificate to change from a class 6 commercial trailer to a class 4 recreational automobile trailer with a gvw of 1401kg+

the show 2 pictures of automobile trailer, the recreational one looks just like the u-haul style ones with open deck, the commercial is the double decker style you see behind semi's.

no idea what happens if you haul some cement blocks on your "automobile" trailer from time to time.

if you don't have an inspection cretificate (which I don't) you will have to get it inspected.

Is this for an enclosed trailer or a flat deck trailer? I couldn't get my enclosed registered with a non commercial plate unless I could prove it was a snowmobile trailer.

Owlman
October 19th, 2010, 06:07 am
Is this for an enclosed trailer or a flat deck trailer? I couldn't get my enclosed registered with a non commercial plate unless I could prove it was a snowmobile trailer.

mine is a flatdeck.

i know some people with enclosed trailers, and they have the small plate and own GVW...i actually thought it was easier with an enclosed.

Dan
October 19th, 2010, 01:19 pm
Is this for an enclosed trailer or a flat deck trailer? I couldn't get my enclosed registered with a non commercial plate unless I could prove it was a snowmobile trailer.

So put a snowmobile in it and take a picture?

jeeponrock
October 19th, 2010, 02:05 pm
So put a snowmobile in it and take a picture?

LOL. They have a nifty little book with a picture of the different style trailers and enclosed car trailers are definitely out.

Owlman
October 27th, 2010, 08:34 pm
ok fawking hell finally....



for those of you with a comm. plate and want to switch to a small plate with it's own GVW and the autoplan broker and ICBC say no, tell them to look at the brokers manual, Volume 2 section 1.9



it will tell you you how to change from a type 6 Comm trailer to a type 4 automobile trailer, even has pictures.

class 4 (recreational/personal use) shows a line drawing of a tandem trailer like you would rent from u-haul, type 6 comm. is the double decker semi-truck style you see delivering to dealers and what not.

i could not find any restrictions on the use of an automobile trailer other than the GVW obviously.



it says specifically in the instructions that you do not need an inspection, BUT you do need a valid inspection sticker #.



I didn't have an inspection sticker on my trailer so i had to go get an inspection done.



now i'm down to a small plate with 3200kg GVW on the trailer.



i had a really good broker, she could have skipped through the screen and done the deal without the inspection sticker # but it would be technically wrong and if anything happened you know they would start hunting for a reason to not cover you.

so $100 for an inspection is worth the peace of mind to me, especially since i will be towing the US quite a bit next year.

she even called ICBC 3 times and talked to 3 different broker helpline people and they were no help except they all said you have to have that sticker # or you could be SOL come claim time, especially if it a major $$$ one.

Tmax
October 27th, 2010, 08:48 pm
oh boy. only here in canada this crap can go on. even the simplest thing can turn into something retarded.

Owlman
October 27th, 2010, 08:59 pm
oh boy. only here in canada this crap can go on. even the simplest thing can turn into something retarded.

yeah, between having a 2010 Willys Ubilt registered this past spring and now this trailer deal i'm becoming a prostar at ICBC hoops.

i haven't had this much trouble getting legal since i had to convince my parents to sign for my learners!

Tmax
October 27th, 2010, 09:01 pm
i wish i didnt have to say it but we have retards running the show.

jeeponrock
October 27th, 2010, 10:50 pm
Thanks for the info Owlman. Time to pay ICBC another visit

Regger
April 16th, 2011, 09:01 pm
Sorry to bring up the past, but I took this thread to my autoplan agent today, and I think I still got screwed.....

I went in there wanting a small plate on my flatdeck/car trailer, with a decal that has the expiry date on it, and the trailer have its own GVW rating... I came out with a commercial plate, a non-expiry decal, and now I have to raise the GVW on my truck... WTF...

Basically the girl said that if I registered it as a class 4 automobile hauler, that I can ONLY haul vehicles on it. And if I get into an accident with anything other than a vehicle on the trailer, my insurance is void...
But since I told her I wanted to carry other things on it (quads, lumber, w.h.y.) then i need to have a commercial plate. So I got the commercial plate, but I neglected to double check how much more money it would cost to increase the GVW on my Dodge..... Almost $200 per year!!!! :O I told them no way on that.. So now I'm left with my current GVW of 5400kg, which means my 10K lbs car trailer can only carry a 3K lbs load with nothing loaded in my Dodge at all... Now my quad flatdeck can haul more than my car trailer!!!!

So Brian46, you say your trailer is designated as "flat deck low boy car trailer". So that means you can only haul vehicles on it, correct? Is that all you want to haul on it?
Is that what everyone (including Owlman) wanted by switching to the small plate and GVW?
I read the CVSE trailer towing info page... But what does "or trailers designed to carry recreational equipment" mean? It says "(such as trail bikes, snowmobiles, a boat, or a horse)" but my jeep is a recreational piece of equipment to me. BUt would ICBC consider my jeep as recreational?

So am I really screwed like I think I am? Because I want to haul my jeep and my quads, lumber, and w.h.y. all on one trailer???
I'm thinking of going back in there, saying its strictly a car hauler, and be done with it.. It would still be cheaper if I then insure my quad deck yearly and use that for the lumber, quads, and w.h.y. and my car trailer as a car trailer than increasing the GVW on my truck... That and I dont want to hit the scales everytime I use it...


Another question on this sort of topic... I was thinking of getting my heavy trailer endorsement, just to be covered in case I do haul a heavy trailer. But if I get the 51, that means I cant tow heavy flatdecks right? And if I get the 20, does it require me to have a yearly physical? But I would still be covered to tow 5th Wheels? Which should I get?

Now my head hurts....
Thanks for any and all info..

Ryan

jeeponrock
April 21st, 2011, 09:44 pm
Sorry to bring up the past, but I took this thread to my autoplan agent today, and I think I still got screwed.....

I think you got screwed too. I sent you a PM with a good agent's info. She was able to help me get my trialer reclassified and insured correctly (with ICBC's approval in writing). I've got a 10k enclosed insured with a recreational plate. She's working Sat so give her a shout and she'll get you fixed up.