4WDABC update

[GWJEEPIN]

Just wanted to take a minute and get a post up to highlight some of the work that we, well mostly Steve, have been doing. Not to over look the efforts of the other Board Members it is worth noting that we have had productive meetings and are putting the pieces in place to make the Association stronger

We have sent a letter to the Ministry of Forestry regarding the gate Norrish Creek Forest Service Road and will post up when get an answer back



Steve has asked Mike Peters our contact at the Ministry of Sports Arts and Tourism to amend our recreation site agreement to include Kenyon Lake. We believe it's in the best interest of the 4WDABC to have this site in order to firmly establish ourselves as stakeholders in the road system


We have a representative on the BC Outdoor council and will be more active in the processes that affect land use issues


There will be future courses for those interested in HAM radio and possibly trail guide orientation for those that are interested in leading the groups on the regular maintenance runs. As we take on more sites we need more trail savvy volunteers


We are in discussions with the District of Mission regarding the proposal of the establishment of an outdoor recreation area in the West Stave Lake area -- in an effort to curb the unsafe/illegal events which take place in the area while protecting the area's unique recreation opportunities.

Then there is the issue of the Hale Creek gate and the use in general. While some bc4x4'ers feel that the Association my have something to do with the increased use, our view is that there will be use of this site whether we do runs there or not. As it has been pointed out, people that go on our runs have a keen interest in using the back country safely AND responsibly. Hale Creek has been around for a long time, there is increased local pressure as well as "urban" wheelers but as long as the Association is managing the site and not having it go a contract management firm, the site has a better chance of remaining free access

[jeeper]

Wow

Good to see your doing your best to make -----YOUR assosiation ----Stronger

But since when did you become the voice for all 4wheelers?


As for an outdoor recreation area at Stave? Who are you kidding? Those that go to Stave are not there to be controlled by political correctness and your rules and your regulations !If that gets shut down -many other areas will be used to the same manor !


And as far as Hale Creek is concerned ---Good to know you at least have heard a few of the concerns , but your arrogance in saying that its better because you are managing it amazes me !


Wow


Bruce

[4Lo]

Politics suck.:poke:

Bruce I hear what your saying but I believe the 4x4 community needs some kind of voice in order to keep backroad areas open to joe public. There is power in #'s.

I don't agree 100% with the 4wdabc's agenda either but we need some sort of group to deal with gov't.:anyone: :cwm25:

[lars]

As for an outdoor recreation area at Stave? Who are you kidding? Those that go to Stave are not there to be controlled by political correctness and your rules and your regulations !If that gets shut down -many other areas will be used to the same manor !
If things keep going as they are at Stave, it will get shut down, anyway. Sounds like ambulances and police cars going up West Stave is becoming alarmingly frequent. Curbing the idiotic behaviour on the main road will help a lot, although I don't know how the Assoc. plans to do this. For that matter, I would like to hear the details of this plan.

And as far as Hale Creek is concerned ---Good to know you at least have heard a few of the concerns , but your arrogance in saying that its better because you are managing it amazes me !
Bruce, re-read what John wrote. He said the odds of Hale Crk having no user fees is higher if the Assoc. manages it than if the gov't handles it the way it has handled other sites, where they contract its upkeep out to a business or individual. This makes perfect sense to me.

...lars

[DMMcG]

Wow


And as far as Hale Creek is concerned ---Good to know you at least have heard a few of the concerns , but your arrogance in saying that its better because you are managing it amazes me !




"Arrogance"?

Better that it's privatized and run like Weaver, Grace, 20-mile, Chehalis? Isn't its still being "free" and open to the public "better"?

Maybe the Association needs to consider an agenda where they exclude those who don't want to be a part of the solution? Wouldn't it be easier to gate and exclude, with access limited to those who are appropriately licensed? I'll bet that the government would be open to an exclusionary approach (they've already suggested it). Greater control and better management of the area, with less risk of pollution, riparian damage, fire etc.

Just playing devil's advocate here, but you've got to wake up Bruce. We're not in Kansas anymore; the BC Governemnt is pushing user-pay, and if there's no one to step up to the plate, they close Crown land "trails & roads" down. Consider the Indian River FSR. Some might think that "nothing is really closed" because they're willing to by-pass gates and ignore regulatory laws, but that is not a viable, long-term solution for the benefit of everybody. That's a selfish, irresponsible approach to our recreational pasttime. It's myopic, short-term, and part of "the problem". Such behavior will be used by those in authority to justify harsher penalties and more closures.

Rather than sit on the sidelines and snipe, why not get involved and contribute to a workable "agenda"? You have the experience and some good input to share.

[Tmax]

i was not going to post here since i baiscally gave up on the idea but will put my 2 cents.

i agree with bruce. the association does not represent all of us. what i dont like is that once this accociation gets big enough, they will have more power and if you dont agree with what ever they say, you are out. soon there will be rules and regulations set by this group and you will have to follow them. this has already have happned in the atv culture here in bc.

like 4lo said, politics suck. i wish not to turn my hobby, pastime, and what i enjoy, into a political agenda. i like the outdoors so i could get away from the city and what goes with it. with the involvement of the association, all i hate is showing up. maybe time to move on and get another hobby. perhaps skydiving to just get away from land and politics.

i also feel that the association has the idea of if you dont agree with them then you dont count or dont care or even dont matter. this has come up many times and i'm tired of the political answers i get.

i wish i could agree and support you guys but i cant.

:beer_cheers:

[Mike Wild]

:metoo

As it has been pointed out, people that go on our runs have a keen interest in using the back country safely AND responsibly. Hale Creek has been around for a long time, there is increased local pressure as well as "urban" wheelers but as long as the Association is managing the site and not having it go a contract management firm, the site has a better chance of remaining free access

I'm sure that everyone that attends your runs have a keen interest in using the back country safely AND responsibly. (while on the run) Who's to say that a newbie that goes on your run doesn't come back the following weekend with a trunk full of his/her yahoo buddies to party it up?

I can see it now:

(Newbie): Hey Billy Bob Joe Schmoe... I was on this run last weekend and they took me to this awesome spot where we can go this weekend and have a huge fire and party and the cops won't bother us... wanna go?

(Billy Bob Joe Schmoe): Sounds gnarly, I'll tell everyone in my mental ward that has access to daddy's truck to come too! Can we bring mattresses and stuff that we can leave behind?

(Newbie): Sure thing, anything that you don't want to bring back can be left there. There's a garbage can down there and if it's full, just pile your garbage by it, it'll get picked up.

:shakehead:

There's also the point of the 4WDABC booths at outdoor shows snagging anybody that walks by showing them maps of the area and asking them if they know about Hale. Like WTF? That's not helping add pressure to the place? :finger_1:

[lars]

I'm sure that everyone that attends your runs have a keen interest in using the back country safely AND responsibly. (while on the run) Who's to say that a newbie that goes on your run doesn't come back the following weekend with a trunk full of his/her yahoo buddies to party it up?
While that's a possible scenario, it seems, to me, to be unlikely. It's far more likely that people talking about Hale and other trails on message boards, and people introducing their buddies to trails, is the more likely source of growing trail use. Right now we've got a gargantuan thread talking up the Whipsaw trail. That will, in its own way, result in more people using it, and not necessarily just on that one particular trip. Should we force them all to sign guarantees that they won't go back and start bogging in the meadows?

There's also the point of the 4WDABC booths at outdoor shows snagging anybody that walks by showing them maps of the area and asking them if they know about Hale. Like WTF? That's not helping add pressure to the place? :finger_1:
Which is better? The Assoc helping to maintain Hale, or the province getting a private contract to take over the site and charge fees?

Like it or not, all trails are seeing heavier use because our population is growing and trails are getting shut down. Ignoring the problem isn't going to help.

...lars

[lars]

like 4lo said, politics suck. i wish not to turn my hobby, pastime, and what i enjoy, into a political agenda. i like the outdoors so i could get away from the city and what goes with it. with the involvement of the association, all i hate is showing up. maybe time to move on and get another hobby.
The 4WDABC was never created to be about land use politics. It originated as a racing association. The politics of land use came about not from fourwheelers, but from the gov't and outside groups. The 4WDABC's re-birth as an organization to fight for fourwheeler's land use rights was a response to those outside pressures.

How, exactly, is the 4WDABC ruining your enjoyment of the backcountry? I'm aware of your contention that Hale Crk's increased use is a direct result of the 4WDABC maintenance runs, but is there anything else?

...lars

[canucksafari]

Lars, I am with you on the Whipsaw thread. Even its status as a BFG Trail will creat more pressure.

Come on guys if you want to blame anyone for pressure on Hale or any other trail blame the guys who print maps. Anyone can pick up a back road map anywhere. Before that, forestry maps use to be plentiful. I am sure that Lars can remember a time you could go ove the Whipsaw on a weekend and not see a soul. Now, it is busy up there all year long. I use to go to Placer all the time and stopped after the Ministry of Forests published their little map book. So lets get over the blaming and work with what we have to try to make it better. 4WDABC is doing its best to educate new wheelers and to keep the back country open for us. IMO, they are doing a pretty damn good job of it for a bunch of voilunteers which have a regular job and family.

[Mike Wild]

While that's a possible scenario, it seems, to me, to be unlikely. It's far more likely that people talking about Hale and other trails on message boards, and people introducing their buddies to trails, is the more likely source of growing trail use. Right now we've got a gargantuan thread talking up the Whipsaw trail. That will, in its own way, result in more people using it, and not necessarily just on that one particular trip. Should we force them all to sign guarantees that they won't go back and start bogging in the meadows?

I'm not saying that the 4WDABC is to blame 100% for the added traffic, but I feel they are doing their part to help/hinder the amount that Hale sees. If they want to promote the site, it should be to 4WDABC members only, not every Tom, Richard and Harry that comes along. At least have some sort of stop gab in place to prevent any yahoo from going there and not telling anyone within earshot of how to get to the place.


Which is better? The Assoc helping to maintain Hale, or the province getting a private contract to take over the site and charge fees?

Like it or not, all trails are seeing heavier use because our population is growing and trails are getting shut down. Ignoring the problem isn't going to help.

...lars

Not ignoring the problem, just voicing my opinion. I do my best to ensure that the place is left better than when I found it. As far as the place mentioned in the backroads map book and such is fine by me. I don't think that the average yahoo would bother to purchase the book and actually go out and explore the trails located within it's pages.

[sdillen]

I have started another thread regarding the proposal surrounding West Stave Lake. I want to be VERY clear that in this matter the 4WDABC is RESPONDING to an initiative sponsored by the District of Mission.

[GWJEEPIN]

i also feel that the association has the idea of if you dont agree with them then you dont count or dont care or even dont matter. this has come up many times and i'm tired of the political answers i get.

:beer_cheers:
So you mean I let you take a HAM course and this is the thanks we get!
And what planet are you guys on, I mean really, is it THAT bad, for all the whining and crying you'd think someone told you that you can't wheel ANYwhere, or that you are persona non gratis.
Time to get your heads out of the sand people, look to the States, they have OHV parks everywhere, is it ideal? no, but its better than NOTHING!!!!!
FACT: The population is growing, there is more pressure on what little land there is available, should I be whining about it no, because unless you curb the population growth you better get used to it.

[canucksafari]

IMO, if you are not part of the 4WDABC or any other organization set-up to defend your interests you're never going to be part of the solution. If you don't like the direction of the 4WDABC, then join it so you can have some input. If you still aren't happy, start your own group of like minded people. This is getting to be a little bit like people whining about the governement all the time but never even go out to vote.

John and Steve are on the right track IMO. I participate on a couple Aussie forums and other international forums. The park system and limted trail openings is coming our way as this is becoming general resource managment practice all over the industialized world. If you want a place off the pavement then you got to be organized and develop good relationships with the government ministries which are responsible.

Mike, the average yahoo is buying the map books and downloading the maps on their GPS. I pretty much had your attitude after the forestry released its map book in the late 80s. It was easy to pick one up just about anywhere and no need to go out and buy expensive bulky sheet maps. It seemed almost immediately there was an influx of the dreaded Coastal wheelers and "hunters" tearing the hell out of my home turf and leaving their sh*t behind. The only way now to deal with it is to educate people and to try to create a popular culture amongst wheelers to take care of the natural resource. The genie is out of the bottle.

[jeeper]

Excellent some good dialoge!



But this is an excample of why I will never be part of the 4wdabc


Quote "IMO, if you are not part of the 4WDABC or any other organization set-up to defend your interests you're never going to be part of the solution"


Its that idea that big brother --Ie an Organized group - is the only one doing anything ,or the only one capable of defending what us four wheelers like !


And Yes Dennis I am awake and this is in fact what will happen as the population grows , Ive seen it everywhere as Ive been wheelin since 81 ! But Im still waiting to see that any group has done anything but maybe ----and thats a big Maybe -slow down the closures of areas !


Bruce

[GWJEEPIN]

I'm not saying that the 4WDABC is to blame 100% for the added traffic, but I feel they are doing their part to help/hinder the amount that Hale sees.
And when did you hire Decima research to carry that fact out! If you want to PROVE that bit of info then we can have a real dialoge on what to do about it, but that kind of statement is like saying that all motorcyclists are speed demons or Hells Angles.

[jeeper]

And when did you hire Decima research to carry that fact out! If you want to PROVE that bit of info then we can have a real dialoge on what to do about it, but that kind of statement is like saying that all motorcyclists are speed demons or Hells Angles.



Is this how to have real dialoge?


The comments that have been made are from people with questions -Help by doing your best to answer them as you are representing the 4wdabc by having Vice President in your sig line !


Bruce

[canucksafari]

Excellent some good dialoge!



But this is an excample of why I will never be part of the 4wdabc


Quote "IMO, if you are not part of the 4WDABC or any other organization set-up to defend your interests you're never going to be part of the solution"


Its that idea that big brother --Ie an Organized group - is the only one doing anything ,or the only one capable of defending what us four wheelers like !

If you can show me one case were any one individual without any organization backing them was able to influence government, (terrorists not included) I might consider conceeding your point. Lone rangers have never won any battles. BTW, I don't know where you got that idea of the concept of "Big Brother". Sure wasn't from 1984.

Oh and one other thing; every one here likes wheeling up in the Whipsaw don't you. Geat scenery and nice old road. If it wasn't for a local organization, namely the Otter Valley Princeton Fish and Game Club, that whole area would have been clear cut from Coalmont to Lodestone down to Well and down the Whipsaw. And it would have started long before you started wheeling in 1981. When the pressure to start mining Lodestone starts, it will be the organizations like the Fish & Game Club and 4WDABC which will work to ensure you still have access and that the area is impacted as little as possible. So don't give me that BS about organizations.

On a side, it might be a good strategy for the 4WDABC to link up with the Fish & Game Clubs throughout the province. Most of them are made up of avid 4 wheelers, fishers and hunters. More importantly, they usually have people who have the ear of their local MLAs.

[jeeper]

If it wasn't for a local organization, namely the Otter Valley Princeton Fish and Game Club, that whole area would have been clear cut from Coalmont to Lodestone down to Well and down the Whipsaw. .



Now thats interesting stuff !

Where did you find this information ?


Bruce

[GWJEEPIN]

Is this how to have real dialoge?


The comments that have been made are from people with questions -Help by doing your best to answer them as you are representing the 4wdabc by having Vice President in your sig line !


Bruce

But answer it so as not to come across as too arrogant...right?
And I try to work from fact, not speculation or feelings, I find it more productive and meaningful in the long run

[jeeper]

But answer it so as not to come across as too arrogant...right?
And I try to work from fact, not speculation or feelings, I find it more productive and meaningful in the long run


Sounds like a good game plan ! In any encounter try to take the high road and you will represent yourself and your organization better ! I dont always do as I say but Im not representing anyone !


Bruce

[canucksafari]

Now thats interesting stuff !

Where did you find this information ?


Bruce

I grew up there. I was part of the fight against it, as were many others. I started 4 wheeling in 1980 and I was hiking into the area long before that. We did not win everything. We lost Paradise Valley - the head waters of the Tulameen. But at least you're not wheeling through a total clear cut now.

[4Lo]

On a side, it might be a good strategy for the 4WDABC to link up with the Fish & Game Clubs throughout the province. Most of them are made up of avid 4 wheelers, fishers and hunters. More importantly, they usually have people who have the ear of their local MLAs.

I have been saying this on here and other boards for months. The major groups, clubs, associations etc NEED to come together to promote common interest.

By getting together and sharing resources and putting aside ego's there may be a real golden opportunity to get the outdoor enthusiast group voice heard. ie Atv, 4x4, hiking, fishing clubs etc....

:anyone: :anyone: :anyone: :shakehead:

[4Lo]

As a group who all share the same outdoor interest we need to stop the bickering. Infighting is going to have absolutely no positive impact on ideas and decisions put forth to keep crown land accessable to the public.

We have an opportunity to make things happen through a group (4wdabc) to help in keeping with those interests.

[Tmax]

So you mean I let you take a HAM course and this is the thanks we get!


setting up the ham course was a great great idea and if you go back to my emails, you will see that i greatly appricated it. its great when someone sticks their neck out and tries to help others for the better. i'm all about that and was looking forward to use the new resources.

but you lost me as soon as you tried to link it to a club. all i get is the impression that youre not cool unless you are part of this club. well i did the honarable thing and did not go for the course wich i was looking forward to do. in fact without trying too sound to cocky, you probably lost on a good resorcefull person regarding the ham group.

thanks for leting me take the course. talk about arragance right there. thats just as stupid as me saying i let you let me take the course.

[Tmax]

But answer it so as not to come across as too arrogant...right?
And I try to work from fact, not speculation or feelings, I find it more productive and meaningful in the long run

please present us with actuall facts and documention that you work from.

[jeeper]

I grew up there. I was part of the fight against it, as were many others. I started 4 wheeling in 1980 and I was hiking into the area long before that. We did not win everything. We lost Paradise Valley - the head waters of the Tulameen. But at least you're not wheeling through a total clear cut now.



This is good stuff . You state here that you were part of the fight against the mining /logging of the whipsaw area . But you also state that you were part of a group !


But in this next post you make my point to a T . Where you say if it wasnt for a local organization --the otter valley fish and game club , that whole area would have been clear cut !Its so funny how people in organizations forget they are part of a larger group ! Im sure as you stated in the last post that there were many people many different organizations ,many different agenda's represented in stopping this clear cuttin as you called it ! I can also gaurentee that there were many ,many ,many individuals out there helping and aiding in stopping this ! But wait -I forgot -a lone ranger never gets anything done . ooops Im bad !




If it wasn't for a local organization, namely the Otter Valley Princeton Fish and Game Club, that whole area would have been clear cut from Coalmont to Lodestone down to Well and down the Whipsaw. And it would have started long before you started wheeling in 1981. When the pressure to start mining Lodestone starts, it will be the organizations like the Fish & Game Club and 4WDABC which will work to ensure you still have access and that the area is impacted as little as possible. So don't give me that BS about organizations.

.



I will give you grief about organizations as long as they continue to keep their heads in the sand and think that they are the only ones doing anything ! They are nothing without the common person ! Go to your meetings -pat yourselves on the back and keep telling yourselves you are relevent while taking fees from people to "support" your causes !

I know I got greif for saying arrogance in an earlier post but this attitude is arogant !


Bruce

[jeeper]

Ok :)


This thread has caused me to officially become a web wheeler !


I even learned how to use 2 quotes in one response! Dam Im good :)


Bruce

[zedjay95]

I don't think that the average yahoo would bother to purchase the book and actually go out and explore the trails located within it's pages.


ok what is the first thing anyone says when a newbie logs on here and says they're looking for trails to run? answer... go buy a backroads mapbook and attend a west harrison cleanup run!!! standard reply seen it many times yet here we are complaining about the presures of the runs and blaming the assoc make up your minds people

[jeeper]

ok what is the first thing anyone says when a newbie logs on here and says they're looking for trails to run? answer... go buy a backroads mapbook and attend a west harrison cleanup run!!! standard reply seen it many times yet here we are complaining about the presures of the runs and blaming the assoc make up your minds people


You just made his point !


The west Harrison cleanup run always includes Hale Creek ! :)


Oooops Im being a web wheeler again !


Bruce

[canucksafari]

Bruce, the point I was trying to make was that it was only through organizations was the fight won. In this case it was clear that the Fish & Game Club took the lead. When the meetings took place to decide strategy, if you weren't part of the organization, then your voice counted little. Just like the recent fight on the attempt to limit the imports of RHDs, if all the people interested in stopping this had gone off on their own, we would have lost the fight. We all came together with one common intrest from 4 wheelers to tuners to collectors. Personally I thought it was impossible because everyone was blaming the other group for the problems. So far we have prevailed. Now if you don't want to be part of the 4WDABC and have your views head there as a member then thats you business. However, I can understand how the volunteer leaders might flip out a bit after putting in thousands of hours for no renumeration in what they really believe is the service of all 4 wheelers.

[jeeper]

Bruce, the point I was trying to make was that it was only through organizations was the fight won. In this case it was clear that the Fish & Game Club took the lead. When the meetings took place to decide strategy, if you weren't part of the organization, then your voice counted little. Just like the recent fight on the attempt to limit the imports of RHDs, if all the people interested in stopping this had gone off on their own, we would have lost the fight. We all came together with one common intrest from 4 wheelers to tuners to collectors. Personally I thought it was impossible because everyone was blaming the other group for the problems. So far we have prevailed. Now if you don't want to be part of the 4WDABC and have your views head there as a member then thats you business. However, I can understand how the volunteer leaders might flip out a bit after putting in thousands of hours for no renumeration in what they really believe is the service of all 4 wheelers.


I never asked for their help ! If they have that attitude they shouldnt be doing it !


Bruce


And yup ! This is good to air this stuff out and see what common ground we all have !

[canucksafari]

I never asked for their help ! If they have that attitude they shouldnt be doing it !


Bruce


And yup ! This is good to air this stuff out and see what common ground we all have !

We all get an attitude at times. Sometimes all it takes is just a crappy day and one little comment that usually would be ignored. But it makes for some interesting reading.:laugh

[Mike Wild]

ok what is the first thing anyone says when a newbie logs on here and says they're looking for trails to run? answer... go buy a backroads mapbook and attend a west harrison cleanup run!!! standard reply seen it many times yet here we are complaining about the presures of the runs and blaming the assoc make up your minds people


So if you're going to quote me, quote my whole sentence:

Not ignoring the problem, just voicing my opinion. I do my best to ensure that the place is left better than when I found it. As far as the place mentioned in the backroads map book and such is fine by me. I don't think that the average yahoo would bother to purchase the book and actually go out and explore the trails located within it's pages. I've never said to join this political run to find out where the places are.

I have no problem with it being in the mapbook. I'll be the first to tell a yahoo to go consult it. In my opinion, 'most' (notice that I put that in quotations?) 'most' yahoo's won't bother. There are, I'm sure, some industrious 'yahoos' out there that will consult the books, I'll never tell them to 'join the collective' and be shown the places

* Edited by moderator to remove name-calling

[jeeper]

We all get an attitude at times. Sometimes all it takes is just a crappy day and one little comment that usually would be ignored. But it makes for some interesting reading.:laugh



You are so right :)


You sound like you are almost as old as this old fossil :)



When you were commenting on hiking the whipsaw area in 1980 im going wow ! Someone as old as me !
I started backpacking in around 77-78 , One of our trips when I was a young buck was with a bunch of 12 year old boys (fatherless ) and me and a few freinds (in our 17-18s ) organized some backpacking trips to take these young boys along ! And one of these trips was from Manning Park - we entered just past Rohdodendrum flats on the old engineers road/trail , and up to the Punch Bowl Via the Watcom Pass . We went for a day trip up Skaist mountain and then continued up and out through Paridise Valley !

Some of the best times of my life !

What an incredible trip ! The area is incredible ,and hadnt changed much when I wen back about 10 years ago and did a 5 day backpack trip from the whipsaw area down into that . Our goal was to hit the 5 different lakes just up outa parridise Valley ! We ddi that and had a blast !


I Love that area -Princton /whipsaw/placer/etc and have spent lots of time in there !


Bruce

[Lone Ranger]

a lone ranger never gets anything done

Hey! I heard that! :poke: I agree with the 4WDABC and what they're trying to do. Yes, they may not be perfect but the effort's there. I was given the opportunity to take the ham course, but it couldn't happen due to my work schedule. One can hardly say that the 4WDABC is a "big brother" organization, but merely fighting that very thing. The gov't wants to shut down OUR public land and privatize it, and we as 'wheelers and outdoors people have the obligation to fight this. Plain and simple. LR

[Mike Wild]

and we as 'wheelers and outdoors people have the obligation to fight this. Plain and simple. LR


I couldn't agree more.... WE AS WHEELERS AND OUTDOORS PEOPLE...

[jeeper]

Hey! I heard that! :poke: I agree with the 4WDABC and what they're trying to do. Yes, they may not be perfect but the effort's there. I was given the opportunity to take the ham course, but it couldn't happen due to my work schedule. One can hardly say that the 4WDABC is a "big brother" organization, but merely fighting that very thing. The gov't wants to shut down OUR public land and privatize it, and we as 'wheelers and outdoors people have the obligation to fight this. Plain and simple. LR



:) I was havin fun when I posted that figurin youd see it and say somethin :)


I probably dont have anything against what they are trying to do (bc4wdabc}/just in the mannor that its being done !



Bruce

[snacks]

i think everyone should just have fun. eatin sardines with crackers saves alot of garbage use but bacon grease helps with the fire.


i don't know much about clubs other than the odyssey downtowns but they don't charge for membership.

on that note they have the bestest :killer kool-aids:


:read

[GWJEEPIN]

I probably dont have anything against what they are trying to do (bc4wdabc}/just in the mannor that its being done !



Bruce

:metoo[/QUOTE]

And what manner is that? reading between the lines I see this is the common thing, I have been a member for a few years and never found it to be anything like the FreeMasons or the KGB for that matter. So help a newbie Board member understand just what all the fuss is about, cause I all I am working towards is supporting a VOLUNTEER cause that is about RESPONSIBLE OUTDOOR USE & LAND ACCESSABILITY, be it wheeler, fisherperson (thats my stab at PFC) hunter, quadder what ever and as far as politics go, I leave that for the persons wanting to play that game. I find it kinda ridiculous that the 4WDABC is in someway making Hale Creek more busy, I mean we have what 12~16 members show up for a run, half of those dont come all the time on a run, and yet on those runs I see the same number or more NON 4WDABC people using the same West Harrison FSR. I will say that as more quads are being used to explore the backcountry, there will be more people telling their friends about places, Hale for one, who tell two friends and so on.
And Tmax, if we were an "exclusive" club or only letting certain people in, then why are you at a course?
FYI I started this post with facts not propaganda or bs, just stating what we are working at or towards.

[sdillen]

I have been saying this on here and other boards for months. The major groups, clubs, associations etc NEED to come together to promote common interest.

By getting together and sharing resources and putting aside ego's there may be a real golden opportunity to get the outdoor enthusiast group voice heard. ie Atv, 4x4, hiking, fishing clubs etc....

:anyone: :anyone: :anyone: :shakehead:

I've been agreeing with you on this for months, and the membership of the Association has been asking for it for years! The challenge the Association has faced in this is simply a shortage of people and hours to establish these relationships. The Association, after all, is completely volunteer driven. This year we have more volunteers and as a result we're able to take on more of what our membership is asking of the Association.

During the Fraser Valley Sportsman Show in march, we had a number of discussions with ATV/BC about how we can partner with their efforts to protect trails. As a result of those discussions, the Association has recently rejoined the BC Outdoor Recreation Council (www.orcbc.ca). There's a lot more that we'd like to do, but this is certainly a start.

[4Lo]

Glad to here this steve. I support your view of land use staying "free and open" to the public. You will never satisfy the opinions of all. Good for you guys for all your efforts, even if some of your effort seems redundant. I'm glad to hear that you are putting together partnerships with other groups, this will go a long way to success in your goals. I am glad there are people like you and others that will volunteer their time to the cause. Some of us just don't work well with others.:redneck

[sdillen]

since when did you become the voice for all 4wheelers?

I've been thinking about this statement for a while, and I have to say that you are absolutely correct. The Four Wheel Drive Association is NOT the spokesperson for all 4wheelers, but it IS the voice of the members of the association.

In the past, I have said that I intend the Association to be the voice of motorized offroad recreation in the province. I am not willing (except at the direction of our membership) to change the wording of that objective (I believe it has significant impact in supporting our members interests), but the >intent< of the statement is that the Association is the voice of the >members< of the only province-wide registered society which has the stated objectives:
(A) To promote the sport and pastime of Four Wheel Drive motoring in all its phases.
(B) To promote and maintain the natural ecology of our environment.
(C) To promote multiple land use and reasonable access to back-country and wild lands for four wheeling and other endeavours.

The members of the board of the Association (and all volunteers who assist with various projects) have accepted their volunteer position with the blessing of the membership. The projects and direction that the Association is taking is with the full support of the majority of the membership of the organization.

I believe that some of what we are doing offers benefit to non-members, but in all discussions I have with other organizations/governing bodies, the Association is described as representing our members -- that being individual members as well as the Association's member clubs.

Sass (and others) mentioned a perception that the Association is deaf to comments from non-members. I'm afraid that we have to agree to disagree on this topic -- I know that the reason that we asked for this area on the forum is to be able to have non-member input into our plans. There are a lot of good ideas out there.....we need to hear them.

At any rate, we continue to welcome recommendations from the 4wd community that help the Association better represent the interests of our members.....and if we can do that in a manner that >also< benefits non-members, we're all ears!

[canucksafari]

You sound like you are almost as old as this old fossil :)


That's what my kids say.:laugh Paradise Valley was a geat place as was Vuich - but best in late summer or early fall. I have never seen bugs worse anywhere else than the Vuich. I have not been back up there since they started logging the Vuich area in the late 80s. Might be a good idea to check it out this summer to see how much has been replanted. Of course this time i can drive.:laugh

[lars]

This is good stuff . You state here that you were part of the fight against the mining /logging of the whipsaw area . But you also state that you were part of a group !

But in this next post you make my point to a T . Where you say if it wasnt for a local organization --the otter valley fish and game club , that whole area would have been clear cut !Its so funny how people in organizations forget they are part of a larger group ! Im sure as you stated in the last post that there were many people many different organizations ,many different agenda's represented in stopping this clear cuttin as you called it ! I can also gaurentee that there were many ,many ,many individuals out there helping and aiding in stopping this ! But wait -I forgot -a lone ranger never gets anything done . ooops Im bad !

Canucksafari's example may have not been ideal but it still gets the point across. Individuals, working individually, rarely have an impact on the decisions made by government. There's elections and referendums, but that's about it. And even then, those democratic processes are heavily influenced by the actions of various interest groups.

I see people complaining about the politics of the 4WDABC but how else do you deal with a government? You have to get political. You have to join forces and form a united front because that's how you get the attention of bureaucrats. Do you think the eco groups would have had the success they have if they acted alone? Of course not. Also, as far as getting the MTSA to recognize existing trails, they themselves have stated that they prefer to work with user groups rather than individuals.

In short, the 4WDABC is our best option. If anyone disagrees, I'd like to hear what they think would be a viable alternative.


...lars

[Mike Wild]

In short, the 4WDABC is our best option. If anyone disagrees, I'd like to hear what they think would be a viable alternative.


...lars


http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y112/mikewild/A1crap/Vote_For_Pedro_1.jpg

:D

[lars]

Ok, you made me laugh. ;-)

...lars

[Bronco Boy]

I propose that the 4WDABC and all other the organizations (motorcycle etc) bow out right now. Drop everything they are doing and just do nothing. This way we can truly see how fast the gates go up and we loose ALL access. Even Pedro understands this.

I understand the argument of not wanting any political intervention, but those of you must realize that with the popularity of this sport, without said intervention, we will have nothing. It is just the way our world works, like it or not.

Places like Stave have gotten to such a gong-show state, that it just can't go on. We need to do something about this, end of story.

All these organizations that you don't like may not have YOUR best interests in mind, but they have the WHOLE SPORTS interest in mind.

If Stave gets closed, I will be very upset. Think of all the retards that will now be on the trails that we like to frequent. Imagine Harrison West on a long weekend, and triple the traffic. Oh yay! :shakehead:

[Bronco Boy]

I probably dont have anything against what they are trying to do (bc4wdabc}/just in the mannor that its being done !
So why not advise them on how YOU think they should change, rather than just disagreeing with what/how they do things.

Seems to be a small number here that disagree with the 4WDABC. Are you guys just being rebels? Free spirits? Wait. You aren't hippies, are you? I know Mike would like to be one. :laugh

[Mike Wild]

You aren't hippies, are you? I know Mike would like to be one. :laugh

whaddaya mean I'd like to be one??? I thought I WAS one!

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y112/mikewild/A1crap/12523.jpg

[Lone Ranger]

Personally, with the turn around and restart of the 4WDABC I think they're on the right track. Chris hit it dead on with the statement that they can't cater to everyones' special interests, but to the interests of the whole 4wd community. Their goal is to keep trails open, not running around in circle trying to keep everyone happy. As for some of the US groups I've seen, and how far wrong they've gone wrong, I think the 4WDABC is doing just fine in their limited, volunteer driven state.

Personally, I would actually prefer to see more unity within the offroad motorized world and see groups like 4WDABC, ATV/BC, ect ect ect team up and work together, considering that most trails are shared by all forms of vehicles (4x4s, ATVs, MTBs, ect). I know there has typically been a fair amount of dissension for other forms of offroad vehicles, but this does need to end. Its borderline desperation time in regards of trails being closed, and gov't organizations are starting to close them to everyone, not just the usual culprits. They're also at their wits end with how to keep everyone happy, and their response it to ban everyone equally. LR

[canucksafari]

Attacks on 4 Wheelers can come at us from various Gov Ministries and interest groups. Again looking at Australia and you will see wheelers are be attacked on all fronts there, especially from the environmentalists who would like to see everypone walking the outback. Now their transport dept is going after them with new vehicle regs and there is no grandfather clause. They are only allowing a total lift of 4" over stock (that includes the lift gained by any combination of tires, suspension and and body). This is our future if we don't get our sh*t together. It really requires us to get as many allies as possible.

We also need to get a dollar figure on the total value that 4 wheelers and activites related to 4 wheelers provides to our BC economy. I am betting that it is a substancial amount. This governement seems to understand money best. I think it will have a bigger impact than saying that the 4wdabc has 400 or 4000 members. We also need all the businesses that make money off our activities to step up to the plate and put pressure on their MLAs and in the local media.

Steve, if you need some more help, I am willing to do what I can.

[GWJEEPIN]

We also need to get a dollar figure on the total value that 4 wheelers and activites related to 4 wheelers provides to our BC economy. I am betting that it is a substancial amount. This governement seems to understand money best. I think it will have a bigger impact than saying that the 4wdabc has 400 or 4000 members. We also need all the businesses that make money off our activities to step up to the plate and put pressure on their MLAs and in the local media.

NOW we're talking.... it only took four pages of spleen venting, everyone's had a hug and a cocoa, now can we get down to buisness??

[Bronco Boy]

We also need to get a dollar figure on the total value that 4 wheelers and activites related to 4 wheelers provides to our BC economy. I am betting that it is a substancial amount. This governement seems to understand money best. I think it will have a bigger impact than saying that the 4wdabc has 400 or 4000 members. We also need all the businesses that make money off our activities to step up to the plate and put pressure on their MLAs and in the local media.
I can post a picture of my "book of receipt's" for the last 14 years. That should make them go :eek:!! :laugh



.....everyone's had a hug and a cocoa.....
Mmmmmm, cocoa. :cwm30:

[sdillen]

We also need to get a dollar figure on the total value that 4 wheelers and activites related to 4 wheelers provides to our BC economy. I am betting that it is a substancial amount.

I guarantee that it's a substantial amount! I've been looking at just the West Harrison runs. Let's say on average we have 15 vehicles participating (I think the lowest turnout was 8 trucks, largest was 28). Now look at some VERY conservative averages....
$50 in fuel for the day
$20 in lunches/snacks
...there's $12,000 / year from an event that isn't even a blip on the radar of 4x4 recreation in the province.

Any time I take the kids camping for a weekend, I figure it's a good $500. (fuel, food, refreshments, basic gear upgrades). I'm sure it's the same or more for anyone else.

Now, add vehicle upgrades. While none of us are likely going to want to admit to ourselves what we're spending on vehicle upgrades (or more importantly, don't want to admit to our significant others....), but tires/lift kits/lockers/lights/onboard air systems/bumpers/winches/winch rope/tree savers/tug straps/shackles/high lifts/flashlights/fire extinguishers/tire chains don't grow on trees.

Then you start to look at the dollars we spend on the recreation we use our 4x4s go get to. Fishing gear/hunting gear/ATVs/GPS receivers/mapping tools/radio gear......the list is endless.

It'd be interesting to get a total annual cost breakdown a group of around 100 individuals....just to use as a basis for estimating the impact of this recreation.

Anyone want to run through their 2007 4x4ing expenses?

I just added mine up to around $11k in vehicle expenses, $2300 in fuel expenses and around $1300 in related recreation expenses. I didn't get a chance to go fishing or camping last year, and all of my 'wheeling was local except for one day trip across Whipsaw.

[Mike Wild]

Anyone want to run through their 2007 4x4ing expenses?



I'm running 2 trucks and a boat. I think I'd have a heart attack if I did that, either that or discover why I haven't bought a house yet! :D

[Bronco Boy]

Anyone want to run through their 2007 4x4ing expenses?

I'm sure I really don't want to know, but I will add up some numbers when I get home.

[canucksafari]

Google is such a good friend for pulling up tid bits of info like this


"Information from the surveys suggests mean direct expenditures of $388 per trip, which would directly contribute $11.2 million to the local economy. Dumas' model predicts that those direct contributions could have a total economic impact of $21.6 million in annual regional sales. The current park policy of daytime-only access for six months of the year is estimated to reduce the direct and indirect economic benefits by about 4 percent, supporting $20.7 million in annual regional sales."
http://www.ncparks.gov/News/releases/release.php?id=75

This study is quite interesting and probably of use to the 4WDABC - but no $$$ figures.
http://www.ufwda.org/landuse/ohvrule/USFS_OHVuse_National_Survey_Report.pdf

Jack pot! Check out pages 73-75 of this study on the central bc coast. There's got to be more of this info around.
http://www.orcbc.ca/pdf/CoastRecReport.pdf

Got to get back to work. Will look for more later.

[sdillen]

Jack pot! Check out pages 73-75 of this [ORCBC] study on the central bc coast. There's got to be more of this info around.

I'm sure there is, and I know that the ATV and Snowmobile groups are beginning to gather statistics of this nature. I think that we will see some opportunities to highlight these types of expenses through our renewed participation in ORCBC.

[canucksafari]

I'm sure there is, and I know that the ATV and Snowmobile groups are beginning to gather statistics of this nature. I think that we will see some opportunities to highlight these types of expenses through our renewed participation in ORCBC.

Then the question to government is, do you want to keep these $$$ in the BC economy and see it grow or do you want us heading North, South and East to where the 4 wheelers' economic contribution is appreciated?

[sdillen]

Then the question to government is, do you want to keep these $$$ in the BC economy and see it grow or do you want us heading North, South and East to where the 4 wheelers' economic contribution is appreciated?

And the answer I have received from MoTSA (both in words and in actions) is that the government wants to see the money kept local BUT that the government doesn't really know how to properly manage the resources needed to sustain the form of recreation.

Since I started being an active member in the 4WDABC in mid 2005, I have heard cities say "We don't want 4x4 recreation". I have heard companies say "We don't want 4x4 recreation". I've heard environmental interest groups say "We don't want 4x4 recreation". I've heard individual people say "We don't want 4x4 recreation". but I have not heard the Provincial government say anything other than "Let's try to make 4x4 recreation work as an important part of tourism and recreation in the province."

In my opinion, the closures we have seen in recent yearrs are as a result of pressure from the significant number of organizations who are opposed to 4x4 recreation....or at least opposed to it being in their backyard!

[GWJEEPIN]

I can post a picture of my "book of receipt's" for the last 14 years. That should make them go :eek:!! :laugh




Mmmmmm, cocoa. :cwm30:

Ya and mine has Kaluha...... and mini marshmellows...

[jeeper]

wHAT????????




Doesnt anyone work during the day anymore? Three pages on this thread I had to read :)

Lots of good discusiion !

Bruce

[canucksafari]

In my opinion, the closures we have seen in recent yearrs are as a result of pressure from the significant number of organizations who are opposed to 4x4 recreation....or at least opposed to it being in their backyard!

Steve, it would be good to know the names of our adversaries - their organizations. If you don't want to name them here where it is public, then perhaps on the 4WDABC's discussion foum. Its kind of hard to fight an enemy unless you know who they are.

[canucksafari]

Doesnt anyone work during the day anymore? Three pages on this thread I had to read :)

Yep, you can tell pretty quick what kind of jobs the daytime posters have. Blood key board pushers.:laugh Actually I saw on MUD a post from the mods saying that aboiut 75% of the post were during regular work hours. Of course, I only occasionally post during the day.:rolleyes:

[sdillen]

Doesn't anyone work during the day anymore?

Work seriously gets in the way of my web wheeling. And real 'wheeling.....well....what was that again?

[Lone Ranger]

Roughly $15k invested into my quad, $1k in the trailer, $8k for the cost of my Ranger and at least another $5k into it, recovery gear I'd pin that at around $1k (tools, fire extinguisher, first aid kit, ect ect), gas would be around $5k for camping last year because I camped a lot (back and forth between Merritt lots for me, 2 vehicles needing gas), then I won't even get into how much I spent on hunting rifles/gear last year (and I wonder why I'm so far in debt)... Yes, its pretty sobering. $35k in my corner.. plus.

The scariest thing for me is that last year was bloody expensive for me, this year's going to be even worse! But I am getting lots of camping in though :D LR

*Edit, oh, and the cost of a laptop when my last one died to keep up with bc4x4 still... Oh, and I didn't even factor in little things like basic camping gear, GPS, SPOT, 2 way radios, ect ect.. All said and done I bet I got about a years worth of wages invested into quadding and 4x4ing! That's sick..

[4Lo]

wHAT????????




Doesnt anyone work during the day anymore? Three pages on this thread I had to read :)

Lots of good discusiion !

Bruce


Exactly what I was thinking when I logged in tonight. Finally it is nice to see some positive arguement opposed to the negativity that I have read in the past. Groups unite and the man listens.

I am glad to hear steve that the gov't has stated that they would like to see how to manage these issues positively.

[Tmax]

so what are some of the areas that have recently been cloesed and what was the reason for it?

[Bronco Boy]

Here are my numbers for 2007:

Part...................$5354.76
Insurance..........$ 970.00
Gas...................$1666.97 (1622L)
Food n Coffee....$ 200.00 (approx)
-----------------------------------------------
Total..............$8191.73

The scary thing is that I average a trip once per month, so that works out to cost me $682.64 per run. :omg:

[Mike Wild]

The scary thing is that I average a trip once per month, so that works out to cost me $682.64 per run. :omg:

Tell ya what, just hop in with me next time and I'll only charge you $500, that's a direct savings of $182.64 that could be put towards coffee! :D

[Tmax]

Tell ya what, just hop in with me next time and I'll only charge you $500, that's a direct savings of $182.64 that could be put towards coffee! :D

i'll do it for half. :finger_1:

[Bronco Boy]

Tell ya what, just hop in with me next time and I'll only charge you $500, that's a direct savings of $182.64 that could be put towards coffee! :D
i'll do it for half. :finger_1:
Do I hear $200?!? :laugh

[Tmax]

Do I hear $200?!? :laugh


sold

[gavman]

Do I hear $200?!? :laugh

And the value of driving with a buddy in a real truck= priceless:finger_1:

[Lone Ranger]

And the value of driving with a buddy in a real truck= priceless:finger_1:

:laugh :laugh :laugh

[Bronco Boy]

And the value of driving with a buddy in a real truck= priceless:finger_1:
Ouch! You want to ride shotgun? :finger_1:

[Tmax]

Ouch! You want to ride shotgun? :finger_1:

he said real truck. not a station wagon:poke:

[Mike Wild]

he said real truck. not a station wagon:poke:

maybe he was offering a ride to the mall? :D

[canucksafari]

he said real truck. not a station wagon:poke:

Station wagons can be fun ... http://youtube.com/watch?v=Vp6IAXFxbJ8

Not sure what this have to do with 4WDABC... :confused2 :redneck

Steve, do have any requests on how people on the board can help out?

[GWJEEPIN]

he said real truck. not a station wagon
maybe he was offering a ride to the mall? :D

HMM,, I stopped going to malls in my station wagon cause this kept happening....

[Tmax]

nice station wagon. even has the simulated wood.:laugh

[GWJEEPIN]

We also need to get a dollar figure on the total value that 4 wheelers and activites related to 4 wheelers provides to our BC economy. I am betting that it is a substancial amount. This governement seems to understand money best. I think it will have a bigger impact than saying that the 4wdabc has 400 or 4000 members. We also need all the businesses that make money off our activities to step up to the plate and put pressure on their MLAs and in the local media.

Steve, if you need some more help, I am willing to do what I can.

Thanks for stepping up to the plate for helping out, when we enter into more trail stewardships the need for trail leaders to make the runs becomes more important for one. As you mentioned, applying pressure to ALL levels of Government is also a good way to help, not only the 4WDABC, but the backcountry community in general. The Association is still in growth mode after rising from the Phoenix stage, that being the case we are looking at increasing our community presence.
I can do more runs, but until I get that gasoline distribution line run to the back yard, for the time being.... I'm on rations....:cwm10:
4speed on the way:read

[Tmax]

so what are some of the areas that have recently been cloesed and what was the reason for it?

anyone?

[sdillen]

anyone?

I'm not sure what you're looking for here.....

Blue Mountain and Eagle Ridge have been hashed over in infinite detail on this forum. Gates in other areas (Norrish, Chehalis, West Stave, Squamish) have been discussed as well, and the reasons vary.

The Island has its own set of issues with private ownership of land. Elsewhere in the province doesn't appear to be as bad, but there always comments about closing areas. Pick an area and I'm sure that there is an associated group pushing for closure to motor vehicle access.

[Tmax]

I'm not sure what you're looking for here.....

Blue Mountain and Eagle Ridge have been hashed over in infinite detail on this forum. Gates in other areas (Norrish, Chehalis, West Stave, Squamish) have been discussed as well, and the reasons vary.

The Island has its own set of issues with private ownership of land. Elsewhere in the province doesn't appear to be as bad, but there always comments about closing areas. Pick an area and I'm sure that there is an associated group pushing for closure to motor vehicle access.

actully the question was rather simple. was looking to see what areas have been closed recently and the reason for it. norish would be one for sure. any idea why they gated it? is it perminent?


blue mountain and eagle have been closed for a long time. i was talking to jeeper the other day and according to him, eagle has always been closed for at least the last 20 years. i was reffering to recent closures. ie the last 3 or 4 years.

[sdillen]

actully the question was rather simple. was looking to see what areas have been closed recently and the reason for it. norish would be one for sure. any idea why they gated it? is it perminent?


blue mountain and eagle have been closed for a long time. i was talking to jeeper the other day and according to him, eagle has always been closed for at least the last 20 years. i was reffering to recent closures. ie the last 3 or 4 years.

Norrish is gated by Teal Cedar, the industrial permit holder for the road. The gate was originally installed to protect that company's equipment as they repair 4 bridges in the area. There is an open question about the long term plan for this gate due to the watershed in the area.

I spoke to the engineer with the Chilliwack forest who is responsible for these roads a couple of weeks ago and the 4WDABC forwarded a formal request for continued public access to the area beyond the gate. I know this gate was included in the agenda of a meeting between the Forest district and Teal Cedar that was scheduled about a week ago, but I have not yet had a response to the Association's inquiry about it. I have placed a telephone call requesting an update and will certainly share any information received.

The gate at the beginning of the road (down by the hatchery) is managed by the City of Abbotsford, and I believe it was closed earlier this year due to road deterioriation, although I don't have a note on file confirming that reason.

[Tmax]

thats great.


i guess one can undrestand that companies close the are while work is in progress.



while we are at this, do you have any idea why the bridges that led to cypress point on the west side of stave were removed? one was removed a few years back and the second one almost 2 years ago.

[sdillen]

thats great.


i guess one can undrestand that companies close the are while work is in progress.



while we are at this, do you have any idea why the bridges that led to cypress point on the west side of stave were removed? one was removed a few years back and the second one almost 2 years ago.

Cypress.....East side, right?

This is from memory...there were a bunch of threads about this posted here way back when. If I recall correctly, the bridges was removed because they were no longer certified to carry traffic and it was cheaper to remove the bridge than to repair it.

What's being done about it now? We (and by that I mean the 4WDABC in cooperation with the MoTSA) are looking at a number of options. At present, there are several applications in progress for independent power providers to initiate projects in the area. As some of their projects may result in the loss of recreation areas (and remember, MoTSA only looks at official recreation sites/resources) there is some potential to tie "replacement recreation opportunities" into the project. One thought that was thrown around was the reopening of the Cypress Point area. To solidify the 4WDABC's status as a stakeholder in this process, we have applied for a recreation site agreement for Kenyon Lake -- our reasoning being that as the "farthest point" in the East Stave Lake FSR system, taking on this site establishes us as having considerable investment in recreation in the area, and therefore we may have some influence on what the replacement resources include.

[Tmax]

great. thanks for the info. i was not aware that there was treads about it before. will search for in later on to get updated.

oh and yes i ment the east side.
:beer_cheers:

[bcredxj]

hay guys I have been reading this post for a while now and have a idea.
I belong to the rcfcq (radio control flying club of coquitlam). to fly at the airfield on pipeline here in coquitlam you need your member card and then you have to go to the park and rec office and get your field card.
Why not talk to the powers that be and set something up like join "4wdabc" as a group member then go to parks and rec and get a numberd key for that area like coq ,mission, hope......
then you can have a record of license of owner, vin of truck and gate key #s . this will keep out "MOST" of the a$$ holes that like to mess up the areas and have access for those who like to just have fun 4x4ing :anyone:

[Ulysse]

:shakehead:

Why is this so bad?

[Tmax]

Why is this so bad?

what if you dont feel like joing that group?

[Ulysse]

what if you dont feel like joing that group?

Then obviously that would be your prerogative… but if a group exists, and you don't mind being a part of it, then why not leverage its good standing and reputation for the benefit of its members? Maybe then that might be reason for joining said group...

[Tmax]

Then obviously that would be your prerogative… but if a group exists, and you don't mind being a part of it, then why not leverage its good standing and reputation for the benefit of its members? Maybe then that might be reason for joining said group...

or that would be a great reason not to join. if thats the case, soon, what ever you want to do has to be decided by that group. seen it already in a simillar case.

[lars]

That was already done with the gate at Blue Mtn. Problem was, key people would leave the gate open, then other people who had to key would discover the gate open, go in, and then resort to destroying the gate when they came back down and discovered that the gate was now closed and locked. Also, one local forum was talking about how they were going to get a key and then put it in a hidden place for all their members to use.


...lars

[Ulysse]

That was already done with the gate at Blue Mtn. Problem was, key people would leave the gate open, then other people who had to key would discover the gate open, go in, and then resort to destroying the gate when they came back down and discovered that the gate was now closed and locked. Also, one local forum was talking about how they were going to get a key and then put it in a hidden place for all their members to use.


Sounds like the problem is with the people who left the gate open in the first place... not the fact that there was a key program...

what if u don't want to, or like, or agree, or get along,or ..... If it get to the point where I have to join H.O.T....I mean 4WDABC to get a key to go wheeling, I will move back to the bush.We are living in a world where people try to use fear to get everyone in line, or use their key.I don't think the "damage" being done out there is that bad, meaning so bad u have to gate and start using keys...good grief


It would be nice not to have to join anything... and it would be nice if there were no gates, or idiots to ruin it for others...

BUT the gates are up... and while lobbying to remove them is an excellent first approach, at some point the people who put up the gates may not change their position. Wouldn't a controlled keyed access make sense at that point?

[Bronco Boy]

It would be nice not to have to join anything... and it would be nice if there were no gates, or idiots to ruin it for others...

BUT the gates are up... and while lobbying to remove them is an excellent first approach, at some point the people who put up the gates may not change their position. Wouldn't a controlled keyed access make sense at that point?
:withstupid:

Better to have limited access than no access at all.

[lars]

Sounds like the problem is with the people who left the gate open in the first place... not the fact that there was a key program...

I'm not saying that the key program was the cause of the vandalism. I'm saying that that is an inherent weakness of the key program (ie: it's prone to problems).

BUT the gates are up... and while lobbying to remove them is an excellent first approach, at some point the people who put up the gates may not change their position. Wouldn't a controlled keyed access make sense at that point?
I have absolutely no problem with a key program. All I was pointing out with that anecdote was that they're not fool proof (I know you weren't saying that they were) and that it probably wouldn't last for long.

I'd be happy to support a key program if it would gain us access to gated areas. I'm just pessimistic about its durability.

...lars

[Tmax]

no gates should be the only policy. if gates become accepted, then they will start poping up everywhere. at that point and it'll be up you to have to try and access a key. now who gets to decied if you get a key or not? criminal check, internet reputation, or what?

[Bronco Boy]

no gates should be the only policy.
In a perfect world, yes.



if gates become accepted, then they will start poping up everywhere.
Gates aren't accepted and they are still popping up everywhere. ;)

[Ulysse]

no gates should be the only policy.

agreed

at that point and it'll be up you to have to try and access a key. now who gets to decied if you get a key or not? criminal check, internet reputation, or what?

How about if they were to decide to give you keyed access based on good standing in an association of some sort?

[Tmax]

agreed



How about they decide to give you key based on good standing in an association of some sort?

define good standing? what if you dont care to join any kind of association?





this goes back to my old argument that soon the association will be telling you what you can and cant do.

[Bronco Boy]

How about if they were to decide to give Sass a key based on good standing in an association of some sort?
Who is going to falsify those documents? http://www3.telus.net/cbradley/Smileys/brownbag.gif

[Tmax]

Who is going to falsify those documents? http://www3.telus.net/cbradley/Smileys/brownbag.gif


:laugh :laugh :laugh :laugh :laugh :laugh :laugh :laugh


ok that was funny.

:beer_cheers:

[Ulysse]

define good standing? what if you dont care to join any kind of association?


this goes back to my old argument that soon the association will be telling you what you can and cant do.

Good standing might be as simple as being a member…

Besides my point isn't to convince anyone to join anything, that after all, is your own personal choice.

I was hoping that my point would be to consider alternatives other than Plan A.

Plan A is no gates, and then what?

[bcredxj]

sorry guys I should have been a little more specific about the key program! first you would not join "4WDABC" but a sub group of key holders through the 4wdabc. 4WDABC dose not get to pick or choose who gets a key, any one that has joined the "group" can get one (THROUGH PARKS AND REC WITH A GROUP MEMBER CARD THROUGH 4WDABC ) for the area you would like to weel in. 4wdabc would hold your info, like drivelice # vin, licepl#. park and rec would give out the keys with proof of group card. If you lock the gate behind you (as you should) and clean up your S**T on your way out their should not be a large problem. if you see some one being a dumb ass "take out your phone or camera and take a picture" get a hold of some one at 4WDABC and they can contact the person that commited the act and have them either put on a probation and return their key for a amount of time -or- report it to parks and rec -or/and- rcmp under the offence .

:anyone:
this could work as long as everyone can just THINK about what they do on the trails !

[Tmax]

sorry guys I should have been a little more specific about the key program! first you would not join "4WDABC" but a sub group of key holders through the 4wdabc. 4WDABC dose not get to pick or choose who gets a key, any one that has joined the "group" can get one (THROUGH PARKS AND REC WITH A GROUP MEMBER CARD THROUGH 4WDABC ) for the area you would like to weel in. 4wdabc would hold your info, like drivelice # vin, licepl#. park and rec would give out the keys with proof of group card. If you lock the gate behind you (as you should) and clean up your S**T on your way out their should not be a large problem. if you see some one being a dumb ass "take out your phone or camera and take a picture" get a hold of some one at 4WDABC and they can contact the person that commited the act and have them either put on a probation and return their key for a amount of time -or- report it to parks and rec -or/and- rcmp under the offence .

:anyone:
this could work as long as everyone can just THINK about what they do on the trails !

so what happens if i dont like someone and just report stuff just for the hell of it?

[gavman]

so what happens if i dont like someone and just report stuff just for the hell of it?

And why would you not like someone:shakehead:

[4Lo]

So let me get thjis straight. If I want to go wheelin' I need to be part of a group so I can get a friggen key?? I don't like that idea at all. I don't always plan when I'm going out. Sometimes it is a spur of the moment idea where you want to go out at a strange time. Who's going to give me a key at 3am??

[jeeper]

So let me get thjis straight. If I want to go wheelin' I need to be part of a group so I can get a friggen key?? I don't like that idea at all. I don't always plan when I'm going out. Sometimes it is a spur of the moment idea where you want to go out at a strange time. Who's going to give me a key at 3am??



Can you say --------Night Run ? Some of the best trips were spur of the moment !

[bcredxj]

if you report some one for the hell of it just because "YOU NEED A LIFE"
that is just dumb! and you would need some sort of evidence like a picture or whatever why would you be a ass and do some thing like that


the key would be yours you would not have to pick it up every time you wonted to go out. that is why they would be numbered.

and if you don't want to join in a group than keep weeling at stave while their isn't a gate there sorry to be an ass but welcome to the 21th century where having a little fun has limitations! you could always go down to the states and pay (A LOT) to go out and have fun!

[4Lo]

Yeah tmax. you need to get a life brother.:shakehead:

[Tmax]

if you report some one for the hell of it just because "YOU NEED A LIFE"
that is just dumb! and you would need some sort of evidence like a picture or whatever why would you be a ass and do some thing like that


the key would be yours you would not have to pick it up every time you wonted to go out. that is why they would be numbered.

and if you don't want to join in a group than keep weeling at stave while their isn't a gate there sorry to be an ass but welcome to the 21th century where having a little fun has limitations! you could always go down to the states and pay (A LOT) to go out and have fun!

Yeah tmax. you need to get a life brother.:shakehead:


holly crap. that went right over your heads. that was and example of proglems that could accure if you were to listen to who ever that wants to report crap.

[gavman]

Be...

[4Lo]

holly crap. that went right over your heads. that was and example of proglems that could accure if you were to listen to who ever that wants to report crap.


Joking man. What, you forget to take you sarcasm pill tonight??:finger_1:

[Tmax]

Joking man. What, you forget to take you sarcasm pill tonight??:finger_1:

nope. back at you though :laugh:laugh:laugh

[bcredxj]

We can sit here for the rest of our lives bitching about gates,not wanting to join a group, or having to pay something to do what we like ! But sorry the world has gone to sh#t and this is how things are now. Unless you become the king of the world nothing you can or will do will stop it.We all have to try something to keep access to these places use able or there will be more gates and closures than you can dream, than the only place you will be able to off road will be the speed bumps at your local strip mall :cool:

SO whine and cry all you want about "THE MAN" shutting things down or you can help and come up with some idea on how to keep your hobby alive!!

p.s. i have a great scense of humor but I don't like people wasting space just bitching for the sake of hearing their own voice:violin. I am typing this to come up with a solution!!! what are you doing???:confused2

[Tmax]

We can sit here for the rest of our lives bitching about gates,not wanting to join a group, or having to pay something to do what we like ! But sorry the world has gone to sh#t and this is how things are now. Unless you become the king of the world nothing you can or will do will stop it.We all have to try something to keep access to these places use able or there will be more gates and closures than you can dream, than the only place you will be able to off road will be the speed bumps at your local strip mall :cool:

SO whine and cry all you want about "THE MAN" shutting things down or you can help and come up with some idea on how to keep your hobby alive!!

p.s. i have a great scense of humor but I don't like people wasting space just bitching for the sake of hearing their own voice:violin. I am typing this to come up with a solution!!! what are you doing???:confused2


the world has not gone to ****s and things are not as bad as some make it sound like.


btw your solution is silly. we are talking about hale creek camp site. rigth? have you ever been there and are you aware of the recent developements? its not a kite flying club for kids.

[bcredxj]

the world has not gone to ****s and things are not as bad as some make it sound like.
sorry A little over dramatic about the world going to s**t

btw your solution is silly. we are talking about hale creek camp site. rigth? have you ever been there and are you aware of the recent developements? its not a kite flying club for kids.

"hale creek" ??? sorry I don't understand what hale creek has to do with what I Just wrote

I fly 4 r.c.helicopters and presently have 6 planes and all my gear well worth over 70,000$ so no I don't fly kids stuff. you want to talk about a hobby full of limitations get into r.c. I have to have 2 mil in insurence coverage just to fly!!

[Tmax]

i'm sure your helicopter is real cute. :laugh :laugh :laugh

[jeeper]

wheeling is a lifestyle thing for me and is the only thing that has held my interest over the years. When I'm out wheeling my junk with friends or by myself in the bush I feel a little a rush of FREEDOM, can ya dig it. To have to apply, or kiss ass for a key from anyone is somthing I would never do, because I don't care what anyone says at some point some goof is gonna say "u can't have access anymore because we feel blah, blah, blah"...my 2 cents:cwm30:::


:withstupid:



Well put , there hasnt been many areas closed that should have been kept open , with the growing population there will always be closures .We will have to go a bit further out as the years go on .


All the fear mongering about the end of the world etc to solicite members is distasteful !


Bruce

[jeeper]

"hale creek" ??? sorry I don't understand what hale creek has to do with what I Just wrote

I fly 4 r.c.helicopters and presently have 6 planes and all my gear well worth over 70,000$ so no I don't fly kids stuff. you want to talk about a hobby full of limitations get into r.c. I have to have 2 mil in insurence coverage just to fly!!


You must have some very nice stuff ! Im happy for you .

[Bronco Boy]

We can sit here for the rest of our lives bitching about gates,not wanting to join a group, or having to pay something to do what we like ! But sorry the world has gone to sh#t and this is how things are now. Unless you become the king of the world nothing you can or will do will stop it.We all have to try something to keep access to these places use able or there will be more gates and closures than you can dream, than the only place you will be able to off road will be the speed bumps at your local strip mall :cool:

SO whine and cry all you want about "THE MAN" shutting things down or you can help and come up with some idea on how to keep your hobby alive!!

p.s. i have a great scense of humor but I don't like people wasting space just bitching for the sake of hearing their own voice:violin. I am typing this to come up with a solution!!! what are you doing???:confused2
You must be fairly new to these parts. Key programs have been tried several times with no success. If you have a magical key for a key program, lets here it. Better yet, go and propose said key or card program to, say, the City of Coquitlam, for Eagle Ridge, or head out to Maple Ridge and see if their councilors will approve a program for Blue Mt.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but getting a program to fly remote planes is nowhere's near what is required for this hobby. At this point in time, there are two way's to wheel, all or nothing.

I do admire your passion, but you'll have to forgive us old timers, as we've been there and done that time and time again, so we have gotten good at wasting space. ;)

There, you just had a "four-wheeling in the Lower Mainland" reality check. :)

[J20]

i like bacon............................

[Ulysse]

You must be fairly new to these parts. Key programs have been tried several times with no success. If you have a magical key for a key program, lets here it. Better yet, go and propose said key or card program to, say, the City of Coquitlam, for Eagle Ridge, or head out to Maple Ridge and see if their councilors will approve a program for Blue Mt.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but getting a program to fly remote planes is nowhere's near what is required for this hobby. At this point in time, there are two way's to wheel, all or nothing.

I do admire your passion, but you'll have to forgive us old timers, as we've been there and done that time and time again, so we have gotten good at wasting space. ;)

There, you just had a "four-wheeling in the Lower Mainland" reality check. :)

Well there certainly seems to be alot of "nothing" and the promise of even more "nothing" if some of the new gates that they are proposing goes through... I wouldn't be too hard on people for proposing something different...

So out of curiosity what are some of the reasons that key programs failed? Lars mentioned people leaving the gate open, was that the only reason?

[bcredxj]

I am not pushing anyone to do anything I am just trying to come up with some sort of solution to "legaly" get into places that are or will be closed off to people. I have NO affiliation to 4WDABC ore any other club! I used them as a point of interest because they are getting off their asses and trying to help insted of just b**ching about it

you can bash my idea, that is fine but I am atleast trying
you can whine and mone about gates and trails being closed but this is reality where life isn't what you think it should be it is how they are going to tell you how it is!

P.S. example! you go out and buy a $3000 helicopter and try to fly it in a registured city park without a insur, card in any local manicupality and the $3000 will not look like a lot after you get your fine. try reading www.rcfcbc.com and you will see what real limitations are. I am not trying to be a di*k I am just trying to state how hard it could be to have a little fun.

[Wes Rempel]

So out of curiosity what are some of the reasons that key programs failed? Lars mentioned people leaving the gate open, was that the only reason?

Blue Mt failed because the city wanted it to. They did not live up to their administrative duties. Lock was supposed to be changed annually, new key etc. This did not happen. Getting keys was a PITA due to the poor hours of the admin office at the rec centre. This lead to way too many keys floating around beyond agreement and yet not enough keys available to those to wanted them. Poor information about the key program was also an issue.

It was a screwed up program from the start. The gate is in the City of Maple Ridge. It blocks crown land outside the citys jurisdiction. Eagle is a similar situation.

Zero enforcement by the local RCMP did not help matters.

Blue Mt, it brings back memories... I think I even have that darn key kicking around somewhere...

[Ulysse]

Blue Mt failed because the city wanted it to. They did not live up to their administrative duties. Lock was supposed to be changed annually, new key etc. This did not happen. Getting keys was a PITA due to the poor hours of the admin office at the rec centre. This lead to way too many keys floating around beyond agreement and yet not enough keys available to those to wanted them. Poor information about the key program was also an issue.

It was a screwed up program from the start. The gate is in the City of Maple Ridge. It blocks crown land outside the citys jurisdiction. Eagle is a similar situation.

Zero enforcement by the local RCMP did not help matters.

Blue Mt, it brings back memories... I think I even have that darn key kicking around somewhere...

Some more questions... again, more along the lines of curiosity...

Who was the city coordinating with on this?

Why or what would you expect the RCMP to enforce?

[Wes Rempel]

This goes back some years....

As I recall the city was coordinating this with MOF and the user groups, mainly the dirtbikes and 4x4s. I think it was a city execution of a MOF program.

I would expect the RCMP to deal with the usuals: DUI, vandalism, parking, arson, stolen vehicles, dumping and neighbourhood disturbances. If they took the same approach to Vancouver (or any city for that matter) as they do to our recreation areas, Vancouver would not just be a no fun city, it would be CLOSED.

[GWJEEPIN]

no gates should be the only policy. if gates become accepted, then they will start poping up everywhere. at that point and it'll be up you to have to try and access a key. now who gets to decied if you get a key or not? criminal check, internet reputation, or what?

I have to say that I dont think that is realistic or even a good position to be in where its all or nothing. I mean do you leave your front door open? You have "gate" on your house, and that is to keep the a$$holes out. So why would you tell a company or land owner to leave his front door unlocked if you wouldn't leave your door open? I understand that it could be Crown Land, but if a gate keeps the out the riff raff, yet allows those who respect being granted access, then small price to pay.

[jeeper]

P.S. example! you go out and buy a $3000 helicopter and try to fly it in a registured city park without a insur, card in any local manicupality and the $3000 will not look like a lot after you get your fine. try reading www.rcfcbc.com and you will see what real limitations are. I am not trying to be a di*k I am just trying to state how hard it could be to have a little fun.


And you should get fined ! Why would you spend all that money on rc stuff then go fly it where people are expecting a certain amount of queit time and reprieve from noise? And not wanting to have your rc aircraft come landing on their heads?



This has nothing at all to do with wheelin ! Except maybe bikers or hikers complaining about trucks on the same routes !

Bruce

[Tmax]

I have to say that I dont think that is realistic or even a good position to be in where its all or nothing. I mean do you leave your front door open? You have "gate" on your house, and that is to keep the a$$holes out. So why would you tell a company or land owner to leave his front door unlocked if you wouldn't leave your door open? I understand that it could be Crown Land, but if a gate keeps the out the riff raff, yet allows those who respect being granted access, then small price to pay.

sorry but that position is bs in my opinion. if that time comes, i'll be out of wheeling. now you know why i dont support your views. of course anything anyone says that not with you is unrealistic. in my view, you are more interested in pleasing the other side (if there is in fact any)


again i'm a bit out of the cirlce. where are some of the areas that have been cloesed recently just for the hell of it in the lower mainland and where can i get keys for them?


it is too bad that some are focused so hard, they cant see the big picture. when a place is gated, there is a really good reason for it and i probably would not care to go in there anyways.


please let me and everyone else know what your possition is regarding puting up gates. if you are for gates and pushing for them, your supporters should think twice; since right now there are no gates that i know of that are just up for no reason.

thanks
:beer_cheers:

[4Lo]

I think gates are important in extreme cases such as fire hazards in the hot tinder dry summer months.

[GWJEEPIN]

OK, first and formost PERSONALLY and as VP of the 4WDABC I am NOT for gates at all! IF there is a need to gate and the only way that "we" as fourwheelers, whether you are an Association member or not, benefit from that gating as a way of keeping controlled access to SOME areas and that we do so as user group in general, if that is not to much to ask of some, then whats the problem? There are OHV areas in the States that have been controlled for years and that seems to work. We here in BC are too polarised to get our collective $hit together, in the meanwhile as we squabble and gripe, the Government and other agencies will take the path of least resistance and we will be shut out.

[Tmax]

OK, first and formost I am NOT for gates at all! IF there is a need to gate and the only way that "we" as fourwheelers, whether you are an Association member or not, benefit from any gating as a way of keeping controlled access to an area then whats the problem? There are areas in the States that have been controlled for years and that seems to work. We here in BC are too polarised to get our collective $hit together, meanwhile as we squabble and gripe, the Government and other agencies will take the path of least resistance and we will be shut out.


we are not in the states. is it fair to say you dont know of any areas that have been closed recently or will be closing soon for no reason? i think this is the 3rd time i have asked this question.

[Bronco Boy]

Blue Mt.

Eagle Ridge.

Hut.

Norrish Creek.

Chehalis.

I'm sure there are a few more.

[Tmax]

Blue Mt.

Eagle Ridge.

Hut.

Norrish Creek.

Chehalis.

I'm sure there are a few more.

blue mt: been closed for years due to gong show and locals complaining

eagle ridge: closed due to developement many years ago

hut: not 100% sure but probably becuase of the new cell tower

norish: there is a company working there

chehalis: closed du to unstable train



so there is a reason why places are closed. that was not my question.

[sdillen]

is it fair to say you dont know of any areas that have been closed recently or will be closing soon for no reason?

I know of no public areas in British Columbia....in Canada....or in North America that have been closed to motorized vehicle traffic recently or will be closing to motorized vehicle traffic soon for no reason. There is always a reason.

Reasons I personally find acceptable include (but are not limited to):
- protection of watershed areas (with due process and representation).
- Prevention of physical injury due to unsafe conditions (with due process and representation).
- extreme fire conditions.

Reasons I personally find unacceptable include (but are not limited to):
- Unbalanced pressure from lobby groups
- perceived irresponsibility of motorized offroad recreational users (as a blanket statement)

The objective of the 4WDABC at this point is to promote a positive and responsible (yes, that means politically correct) image of motorized offroad recreation through words and actions. I believe that in doing this, a more balanced view of the impacted users can be used in support of whatever decisions regarding land access are made.

There've been some really good comments/suggestions made here (and elsewhere) regarding possible alternatives to a very easy "no access" solution. The Association is all ears when it comes to constructive comments -- please keep them coming.

Sass....I (and I think I can safely say everyone else who has checked into this thread) fully understand that you disagree with the direction of the Association and do not support our efforts. I think we're all OK with agreeing to disagree...that's kind of a perk of being Canadian. Can we PLEASE move along now??????

[Bronco Boy]

so there is a reason why places are closed. that was not my question.
Right, and we all know (even you) that gates don't get put up for no reason, just reasons that some don't like. Where are you going with this?

[Tmax]

Where are you going with this?


where are you going with it? :laugh









we'll talkd about it in person next time. the internet thing is not working that great.
:beer_cheers:

[Chet]

gates are generally a bad thing. if you removed all the gates then there wouldn't be an over use problem because the masses could spread out. the more areas you gate the more it forces the same numbers of users into the remaining ungated areas. instead of working on ways of managing gated areas the 4WDABC should be working to get gates removed for good!

[sdillen]

instead of working on ways of managing gated areas the 4WDABC should be working to get gates removed for good!

Thank you, and that's been our approach (reference the Association's declining a proposed gate at Hale Creek, repeated requests to have the gate at Weaver Lake open year-round, our current effort to adopt Hut Lake in order to remove that gate, our current requests to have the Norrish Creek gate reopened, etc.). Personally, I don't know how to manage a gate key program (and have yet to see a successful example in BC which could be used as a model), and the 4WDABC certainly doesn't have enough manpower to do that job even if we did want to.

Even when it comes to the proposed Stave Lake recreation area, the Association is uncomfortable with the idea of a precendent being set for charging admission to access crown land, however the alternative in this example appears to be complete closure of the area.

The Association's position is (as is stated in our constitution) "To promote multiple land use and reasonable access to back-country and wild lands for four wheeling and other endeavours."

The tough part in all of this is figuring out what is "reasonable". 100% gated is not "reasonable". 100% open is likely not "reasonable" either.

[4Lo]

I'll add some fuel to the fire.:beer_cheers:

[96 runner]

you guys and your gate talk it's driving me up the wall. just shut up gates suck. pack out what u pack in, and keep 4x4 spots to friends u know are out to have fun. and no gates wala

[Tim Thorbjornsen]

The Natzi's had gates

[lars]

The Natzi's had gates
And they wore suspenders, too! That's why I don't wear suspenders. Darned Nazis!

...lars

[Bronco Boy]

Damn gate toting, suspender wearing, soup hording Natzi's. :laugh

[Wes Rempel]

Natzi's. :laugh


Darn people could at least spell.:anyone:

[Bronco Boy]

Darn people could at least spell.:anyone:
Sorry Wes, I was in dictionary mode. I really meant to type Nat-zi so you would know how to pronounce it. :finger_1:

[Wheelingnoob]

Edit: I think I put this in the wrong thread, if I did I will move it.

When is the government going to send a truck up to Hail to pick up all the garbage and toxic chemicals?

That place looked worse than I have ever seen it on Saturday. Looked like about 2-3 trees have been cut down, garbage pilled high at the cans (including chemicals). That area was packed on the weekend, the hard way down is a cake walk now and the easy way might as well get paved its so easy.

There was garbage up at the top by the road that looked like an animal had gotten into and spread all over the place.

At Sunrise there was a good attempt made to clean up and it looked good when we left. Hail on the other had was a dump and no attempt was made to clean that up. There was a large amount of garbage there and it was left as it was when we got there.

I asked and the statement was that there was to much to pack out and that Steve was going to arrange for a pick up truck to come down and transport it to the top for the Ministry to pick up. In our group there was 2 pick up trucks and I'm sure had they been asked we could have loaded there trucks up with some or all of it. I guess with the people staying there and watching us no one wanted to make an attempt to clean it up I don't know I just felt wrong leaving it all there. If I had the basket on the roof I would have taken as much as I could safely fit. I hope there have been arrangements made ahead of time to get that stuff out of there ASAP.

I have been on these runs for the last year and a bit and each time there is garbage taken out. I guess I was just a bit sickened at the amount of crap and junk at Hail this time.

Steve if you need any help with getting all that stuff up from Hail to the road let me know. I will see if I can get out there again and with the roof basket this time.

Jeremy

p.s. I too am starting to think that garbage cans at Hail are not helping. I think the only way you can have garbage cans there is if there being emptied bi-weekly. The popularity of the place is quickly out growing it.

[Wes Rempel]

Sorry Wes, I was in dictionary mode. I really meant to type Nat-zi so you would know how to pronounce it. :finger_1:

Chris, you missed it!

It was spelled wrong, Larry spelled it correctly, and then you copied the wrong spelling right after!

:eek:

[Bronco Boy]

Chris, you missed it!

It was spelled wrong, Larry spelled it correctly, and then you copied the wrong spelling right after!

:eek:
I thought I heard a jet plane fly over here. :laugh

I didn't copy it, I just typed it out. Nobody else seems to care about spelling, so if I can't beat 'em, I'm gonna join 'em. :)

Anyways, back to the topic at hand......damn Nazi's! :cwm30:

[bcredxj]

Natzi fun!!!:finger_1:
http://www.livevideo.com/video/WILDCAT/584DFB040BF948B59C8AE409198F6D4A/robot-chicken-hulk-hogans-he.aspx

[Ulysse]

Thank you, and that's been our approach (reference the Association's declining a proposed gate at Hale Creek, repeated requests to have the gate at Weaver Lake open year-round, our current effort to adopt Hut Lake in order to remove that gate, our current requests to have the Norrish Creek gate reopened, etc.). Personally, I don't know how to manage a gate key program (and have yet to see a successful example in BC which could be used as a model), and the 4WDABC certainly doesn't have enough manpower to do that job even if we did want to.

Even wh