September 8 -- 4WDABC West Harrison Maintenance Run

[sdillen]

Please join us on September 8 for the Four Wheel Drive Association's monthly West Harrison Maintenance Run. We meet at the Sasquatch Inn at 9:30am and depart from there at 10:00 (SHARP!).

This month I expect a variety of vehicles and therefore there we will split into groups. Stock vehicles will head to Francis Lake, Hale Creek (via the North road) and Lookout Lake. Non-stock vehicles will head to Hale Creek (via the South road), Sunrise Lake and (depending on the number and comfort factor of those attending) some other trails in the area.

As always, all levels of experience are more than welcome on this run. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to drop me a note.

Hope to see you on Saturday!

[sdillen]

....Winch raffle tickets will be available at this event!!!!!!!!

[rez]

I think I can come,

can I get some direction to the Sasquatch Inn please?

for maintenance do we need to bring anything?
Reza

[canucksafari]

It is East of Mission on the North side of Highway 7 just before the Harrison River. Take Highway 7 all the way from Coquitlam or go to Abby and take Highway 11 across the Fraser to Mission.

[rez]

It is East of Mission on the North side of Highway 7 just before the Harrison River. Take Highway 7 all the way from Coquitlam or go to Abby and take Highway 11 across the Fraser to Mission.

Thanks, I know how to get to harrison , I need direction to the Sasquatch Inn??

[rez]

It is East of Mission on the North side of Highway 7 just before the Harrison River. Take Highway 7 all the way from Coquitlam or go to Abby and take Highway 11 across the Fraser to Mission.

Thanks, I know how to get to harrison , I need direction to the Sasquatch Inn??

[rez]

It is East of Mission on the North side of Highway 7 just before the Harrison River. Take Highway 7 all the way from Coquitlam or go to Abby and take Highway 11 across the Fraser to Mission.

Thanks, I know how to get to harrison , I need direction to the Sasquatch Inn??

[d0ubledown]

goin for the hat trick reply? :p

if ya know how to get to harrison (west fsr NOT the hot springs)...then you would have passed the sasquatch

that is if you take the 7, and not the 1...

[DMMcG]

Thanks, I know how to get to harrison , I need direction to the Sasquatch Inn??


It's the building on the north side of Highway 7, just past Morris Valley Road. Big signs. Can't miss it.

http://bb.bc4x4.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9529&stc=1&d=1188950826

[sdillen]

I think I can come,

can I get some direction to the Sasquatch Inn please?

for maintenance do we need to bring anything?
Reza

The Sasquatch Inn is located on Lougheed Highway, approximately 30 kms east of Mission -- just before the Harrison River bridge (and the turnoff to Kilby).

From points north of the river (Port Moody/Coquitlam/Pitt Meadows/Maple Ridge), head east along Lougheed Highway (Barnett if you're far enough west for it to exist) and just keep going!

From points South of the river, take Highway 1 to the Abbotsford/Sumas exit, then head north to Mission.....then East along Lougheed Highway to the Sasquatch.

Gloves are always a good thing, however nothing else is required for these maintenance runs. If you have any more questions, please don't hesitate to drop me a note!

[Drecar]

So far nothing has got in the way of my attendance. I hope to be there.

[monzter]

My weekend plans have changed so I think I'll be there. :D

[slappy]

i see you got yourself a TJ, Steve. did you sell the Ranger?

[Mike Wild]

Better bring extra garbage bags or a dumpster or two, the place is a **** hole! I still say putting the trash bins there was a real real bad bad bad idea, it gives people the impression there's a regular pickup of trash and it's ok to pile it up! I've never seen Hale Creek in a worse state of affairs. Do everyone a favor, stop promoting the place to every Tom, Dick and Harry and gate it! The guys that put on the YMAW thing that acted like total pricks when pre-planning their weekend never took their signs down like we asked them to, they're still nailed to the trees! I see this wonderful spot turning into another Cogburn Beach complete with a Munchie trailer! :cwm23:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y112/mikewild/Sept%20Long/sept-long338.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y112/mikewild/Sept%20Long/sept-long352.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y112/mikewild/Sept%20Long/sept-long341.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y112/mikewild/Sept%20Long/sept-long351.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y112/mikewild/Sept%20Long/sept-long345.jpg

[4Lo]

Was up at 20 mile bay on monday and the campsite looked like ass. Garbage EVERYWHERE. people ****ting in amongst the trees air mattresses and rubber dingy's left behind...pisses me right off. Time to take down licence plate #'s and fine the fuktards that leave the garbage behind. It reinforces my theory of stupid and ignorant people. This was my first time up there on a day trip. I always thought of twenty mile being a great place to camp. After seeing wahat I saw on Monday.....I'll never ever camp there.:badidea: :shakehead:

[sdillen]

I'm seeking assistance from the Ministry regarding the garbage situation -- and am requesting more "pack it out" types of signs (although it seems that most signs that we put up at these sites grow feet in short order).

Personally, I'm not in favour of gating the sites and I believe that placement of the garbage bins has generally been a good thing -- right up until late July and through August. Prior to these last two months the cans have resulted in very little garbage scattered around the site. I do recall going down to that site last September (prior to signing an agreement for Hale Creek) and remember seeing about as much garbage as is shown in these pictures scattered all up and down the beach. At that time, I commented that it was amazing (to me) that people would take the time to bag up their garbage and then would just leave the bags on the ground for the animals to tear apart.

Overall, I don't believe that the cans make a big difference one way or the other. For 10 months of the year they result in the garbage being somewhat centralized. During the summer, I don't think it would make any difference what was done (except having a caretaker on site), the summer crowds are less than respectful of the area.

[Tmax]

IMHO, the less pepole visit the site, the less garbage. so less advertising of the arae equalls to less people and ofcourse less garbage. something to think about in the future planns.

[Mike Wild]

We've been going there religiously for quite a few years now, every season, and yes I agree, there has been trash, but not to the extent I've seen in recent months. There used to be a central 'group' of regulars that would always be there, we never knew each other, but we'd always see each other there. It's been quite some time now that I've seen any of them there. I can only surmize that they grew tired of the endless throngs of people traipsing through there, and have moved on.

Last weekend there was a group reading off directions from a google earth map into their cell phones trying to get more of their 'friends' to show up. I know I don't own the place, but what used to be a somewhat secretive place that was only known to folks who knew how to read a backroads map book is now pretty much given directions to get there printed on IHOP placemaps as a point of interest. I'm not surprised that your signs grow legs, not that I condone that, but there's far too much advertising of Hale that tends to draw the wrong elements, and I suspect some people are doing what they think is the right way of combating the advertising.

If the place was gated, the public can request keys from the ministry, their information taken down, and therefore, be somewhat accountable for the condition the place is left in. I was going to try and burn/pack out as much trash as I could when I was there, but had I done that, the impression I would have given was that these 'maintenance runs' were actually working to keep the place clean. It's a sad choice I made to leave the trash whereby I normally would have done my best to leave the place better than I found it.:shakehead:

Just my two cents
/Rant

[rez]

thanks for directions

[4Lo]

Steve how can you not sound pissed to hear what was posted of the garbage situation up there?? I can't control my anger when it comes to these mindless bastards. When I see that crap I just want to ring somebody's neck. :angry

I was brought up to respect the land and the things around me as well as the things I own so I guess this is why I feel like it is a personal attack on one of the things I love the most.

I need to channel my anger better:laugh I don't understand why I've gotten the nickname angry steve at work?:confused:

Hey Mike...good read but try paragraphing next time. My eyes hurt.:finger_1:

[4Lo]

thanks for directions


I hope that was a smart ass remark

[Mike Wild]

Hey Mike...good read but try paragraphing next time. My eyes hurt.:finger_1:


fixed it for ya.... I wouldn't want an 'angry steve' at my door! :D

[4Lo]

fixed it for ya.... I wouldn't want an 'angry steve' at my door! :D


thenx.:cwm30:

[Tmax]

fixed it for ya.... I wouldn't want an 'angry steve' at my door! :D

maybe add some smilies while you're at it for maximum effect.

[westcoaster]

I hope that was a smart ass remark

Why would it be a smartass remark?

He had asked for directions earlier and had received them



maybe I'm just slow....

[4Lo]

I dunno. I'm just tired and edgy is all.:boring

[Beast]

Long as i dont have to work i'll be there

[sdillen]

Better bring extra garbage bags or a dumpster or two

The MTSA will attend the site on Monday to remove the garbage. Later in the fall we will evaluate whether garbage bins remain on site or not. This weekend we will gather the garbage and pack out what we can....the remainder will be bagged and left in the bins and in the outhouse for pickup on Monday.

Thank you for the heads up.

[lornix]

Having never been on an official trail cleanup run I have a question.

Are there usually roadblocks and vehicle safety inspections?

I have no horn in my Jeep do to a previously leaky clutch cylinder that will not be repaired before the run. I heard that no horn is grounds for towing. Seems kinda silly, but will require replacing the fuse panel to get the horn back online and that's a job that's waiting for winter. For those who are wondering WTF?? the clutch master cylinder leaked down onto the fuse panel and literally rotted most of it away (common on older standard tranny XJs). Other than that and a bent bumper brace I think my rig will pass muster.

Any feedback?

[sdillen]

Having never been on an official trail cleanup run I have a question.

Are there usually roadblocks and vehicle safety inspections?

I have no horn in my Jeep do to a previously leaky clutch cylinder that will not be repaired before the run. I heard that no horn is grounds for towing. Seems kinda silly, but will require replacing the fuse panel to get the horn back online and that's a job that's waiting for winter. For those who are wondering WTF?? the clutch master cylinder leaked down onto the fuse panel and literally rotted most of it away (common on older standard tranny XJs). Other than that and a bent bumper brace I think my rig will pass muster.

Any feedback?

I have not seen a roadblock or safety inspection on any of these runs (I've been hosting since October '05), however I clearly cannot guarantee that there won't be one -- either on the FSR or on the highway getting there.

[lornix]

Thanks for the feedback Steve. I hope to see you all out there.

Cheers!

By the way, how's the TJ working out for you?

[Tahoe_Guy]

Hey guys

I'm heading up to Sunrise Lake Friday (7th) morning. Will be there with a couple trucks. I'll do my best to do a clean up around the site sans picking up someone's condoms and tampons. That's sick and drives me crazy to see idiots leave that stuff around.

Just an FYI for you guys - my name is Tyler, drive a black Tahoe and my buddy Cory (onekidneydrunk) has an F150.

Is anyone else headed up on Friday or know of anyone already up there?

We'll be leaving Sunday afternoon and do our best to haul as much crap out.

We'd love the company!

Cheers
T

[sdillen]

By the way, how's the TJ working out for you?

Getting closer....I think I'll be marginally trail ready by tomorrow morning!

[sdillen]

Hey guys

I'm heading up to Sunrise Lake Friday (7th) morning. Will be there with a couple trucks. I'll do my best to do a clean up around the site sans picking up someone's condoms and tampons. That's sick and drives me crazy to see idiots leave that stuff around.

Thank you (and I absolutely agree....ugh, that's just disgusting)! Enjoy your weekend and I expect we'll see you up there on Saturday!

[gavman]

Getting closer....I think I'll be marginally trail ready by tomorrow morning!
I thought you could wheel these things straight out of the box?....Like Toyotas:poke:

[mr.vic]

i'll be out there in the stocker cherokee with my GF and her son. will bring a few garbage bags to haul out some trash. see ya there.

[4Lo]

Getting closer....I think I'll be marginally trail ready by tomorrow morning!

You need any help?? Ima 2 mins away you know.:cwm30:

I'm going. It'll be my first time after procrastinating about it for too long. Work was cancelled for saturday.

[sdillen]

You need any help?? Ima 2 mins away you know.:cwm30:

I'm going. It'll be my first time after procrastinating about it for too long. Work was cancelled for saturday.

Great -- it'll be good to see you heading in the same direction as us on the trail!

I'm good to go. As of about 7pm, phase 1 of my TJ project is done. Looking forward to tomorrow....expect a cast o' thousands! We'll split into multiple groups.

See you then!

[4Lo]

Yeah drove by your place on my way out to get cigars and it looked like you were done. Didn't want to be a bother and stop.

[Beast]

Looks like im out, gotta be on the jobsite in Squamish by 9am, looks like another 15 hour day at the rate BC Hydro works....

[Wes Rempel]

Yeah drove by your place on my way out to get cigars and it looked like you were done. Didn't want to be a bother and stop.

You missed the excitement. Student driver driving late 70s full size Ford truck turned a corner and smacked into a parked dually chev... :whiteflag:

[4Lo]

The ford was just trying to rub some class on that chebby eh?

[sdillen]

You missed the excitement. Student driver driving late 70s full size Ford truck turned a corner and smacked into a parked dually chev... :whiteflag:

Awwwww. She just forgot to "unturn". Happens to the best of 'em!

[monzter]

That was fun, thanks for a good day everyone! :beer_cheers:

[sdillen]

I really want to thank everyone for joining the Association for a GREAT day of 'wheeling!

We hit most of the sites and trails -- had some carnage, cleaned up a bunch of sites, and I saw a LOT of grins on people's faces! Due to the fact that we had more than 25 trucks out today (I lost count!) we split up into Stock(ish) and Not-so-Stock(ish) groups. I led the Stock(ish) groups to:

Francis Lake -- the site was in excellent shape and we got a lesson in solving XJ electrical issues.

We then went to Hale Creek (via the North Road). Through a tremendous effort on the part of Kathy, Monzter (and a whole bunch of others!!!!) by the time my group arrived, all of the garbage was bagged and ready to go. I especially want to thank 4Lo for making the trip to the dump for us. I owe you Big Time!

We then headed up to Lookout Lake (which was in fairly good shape) and continued around the loop trail to the south end of the lake -- where we got a lesson in solving XJ coolant leaks.

The not-so-stock(ish) group took the Weaver-Francis trail followed by the south Hale Creek road and then on up to Sunrise Lake.

Carnage of the day.....
Two trucks on flat-decks.
An XJ with a very bizarre intermittent electrical issue
An XJ with a coolant leak that we were never really able to pinpoint
a blown tcase in a Trooper

Again, Thank you all for joining us today!

[4Lo]

And add to the list of carnage....westcoast pinstriping:laugh

[lornix]

And add to the list of carnage....westcoast pinstriping:laugh

X2 - LOL

Had a great time today and really enjoyed getting out there, meeting some great people, and checking out trails I've never seen. Most excellent!

Ha ha ha, Hale looked like a 4x4 show and shine! Well, maybe not so much shine ... :redneck

There were some pretty nice rigs and lots of people around for the lunch break!

This was my first outing with the 4WDABC and I must say they have this down to an art. Everything seemed to go very smoothly and was well organized. Anyone sitting on the fence out there wondering if they should come out to one of these ...do it! It's well worth the trip.

[Drecar]

Well being late for me is a genetic trait so I met up with you guys at Hale Creek where I met Cathy, Ryan, Harry and Sasha. I am still amazed at the garbage left behind. Axle shafts and SOS pads. (Clean your pots and pans but leave your s**t for others to clean).

XJ's are great when they dont geek out on the trail. I made it down the hard trail no prob (I was a little worried cause I was by myself) and even up (I feared Id hold back the bigger rigs). If I encountered Vrock on my own, I would have turned around. So, thanks for everyones help and patience. See you on the trail soon.

[mr.vic]

was a great trip, also my first one with the 4WDABC, thanks to everyone for the help getting my XJ running again. decided it was best to head back after francis lake and not hold the group up if the jeep crapped out again.. and no other no start problems coming down the trail or the rest of the day.. :confused:

:beer_cheers:

[lornix]

was a great trip, also my first one with the 4WDABC, thanks to everyone for the help getting my XJ running again. decided it was best to head back after francis lake and not hold the group up if the jeep crapped out again.. and no other no start problems coming down the trail or the rest of the day.. :confused:

:beer_cheers:

Glad you made it home ok! I'm the tattooed stubby guy in the black XJ that was in the same group. That was a head scratcher for sure. Ha ha I think the only thing we didn't try was rotating the tires!
:beer_cheers:

[4Lo]

Yup everything went smoothly. It was my first trip out as well and I was very impressed with how organized the run was and how the whole day was handled. Good job steve & mike. I'll defineatly be going on more runs in the future.

BTW Steve no charge for the dumping fees....I lost it in the bush on the way down lol.:laugh :laugh Dumped it today at work.:cwm30:

[derekj]

Anybody have any pictures to post? We sure would like to see the carnage:)

Derek

[4Lo]

We sure would like to see the carnage:)

Derek

You sick person.:laugh

[Wes Rempel]

You sick person.:laugh

I took this great shot of this newly assembled YJ standing on its rear tire.

My camera... well... I am hoping to recover it tomorrow...

[tomc121]

I took this great shot of this newly assembled YJ standing on its rear tire.

My camera... well... I am hoping to recover it tomorrow...
ya i missed that but heard the drop back down. I don't think anyone metioned the possability of a pair of shorts in the canage list, LOL. hope you got one of my JK
:cwm30:

[Ulysse]

I had a great time... many thanks to Wes/Mike and Steve, for organizing and spotting...

Lets see those pics...

[Enigma]

Sounds like everyone had fun. I had to work in the morning but I think I passed a bunch of you in the evening as you were heading home and I was heading out to Hope Brigade Days Saturday evening for some real 'roughing it' camping.

I had to pay for firewood, the agony! :violin

[4Lo]

Okay here a few pics I have. Pics are weak but there are still a few good ones.:soso
Two beach pics of Hale. Photo doesn't do justice of how many trucks and peoples were there.
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/2/web/2222000-2222999/2222979_171_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/2/web/2222000-2222999/2222979_173_full.jpg
Coming out of Hale
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/2/web/2222000-2222999/2222979_179_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/2/web/2222000-2222999/2222979_174_full.jpg
Road up to Lookout Lake
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/2/web/2222000-2222999/2222979_176_full.jpg
Lookout Lake
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/2/web/2222000-2222999/2222979_177_full.jpg
On thew way down from the south side of Lookout Lake Rd I snapped this from inside the dakota
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/2/web/2222000-2222999/2222979_178_full.jpg

[Wes Rempel]

Got my camera back.

Here is a link to 100 pics from the day.

http://gallery.hot4x4.ca/album657

Sometimes its easier to just hit slideshow and watch them all go by...

Wes

[lornix]

Here is a few shots of the gathering ...

[4Lo]

I didn't realize the south hale rd was not that bad. I could have done that trail in my Dakota for sure.:boring :finger_1:

[lornix]

Here are some trail shots - not great quality, but none the less ... Steve took the pic the my black XJ for me :beer_cheers:

The last one shows the new additions to my pin stripe collection LOL :laugh:laugh:laugh

[lornix]

Got my camera back.

Here is a link to 100 pics from the day.

http://gallery.hot4x4.ca/album657

Sometimes its easier to just hit slideshow and watch them all go by...

Wes

Holy crap! Nice wheel stand! :redneck:beer_cheers:

[Bronco Boy]

Nice pics!

This is the best.....

http://gallery.hot4x4.ca/albums/album657/acy.sized.jpg

[whitetrashxj]

Steve how can you not sound pissed to hear what was posted of the garbage situation up there?? I can't control my anger when it comes to these mindless bastards. When I see that crap I just want to ring somebody's neck. :angry


mabey its time that we start doing just that if we catch ppl dumping **** like that, ive never seen hale creek looking like such a **** hole, mabey there should be a gate put up on the easy way down so that not every tom dick and harry can go down there, wow, just wow,

[4Lo]

My pickup was FULL of garbage on the way out of Hale.

[Tmax]

mabey its time that we start doing just that if we catch ppl dumping **** like that, ive never seen hale creek looking like such a **** hole, mabey there should be a gate put up on the easy way down so that not every tom dick and harry can go down there, wow, just wow,

unfortunatly that is to be expected with all the added trafic. soon we'll add hale creek to the list of places like stave lake flats.

[Mike Wild]

mabey there should be a gate put up on the easy way down so that not every tom dick and harry can go down there, wow, just wow,

you know it's sad, we were there July long and had some difficulties with a cargo carrier on the way out, so we were pulled over on the side of the road. A few yuppie yaletown wheelers with their pristine landrovers never even gave us a second look and just drove around us. Obviously no trail etiquette whatsoever. A definate wheeler in a nicely done up Land Crusher stopped to see if we were ok. I'm all for restricting access to the place, but even if it was just the hard line in, I still think there'd be problems. It's simply gotten way too popular of a place due to advertising it to anyone who'll listen.


My pickup was FULL of garbage on the way out of Hale.

Good on ya 4Lo for taking out the trash, too bad it took a pick up truck full to clean up the place!


unfortunatly that is to be expected with all the added trafic. soon we'll add hale creek to the list of places like stave lake flats.

it's only a matter of time my friend, I'm just waiting for the day I go down there and find a burnt out shell of a stolen truck burried in the sand!

I think that the fire warden that makes daily trips down there should be provided a digital camera for when he makes his rounds, he snaps pictures of all the vehicle's lisence plates that are down there, that way, when he does his rounds the next day, if they've left trash, the people responsible would be easy to track down and fined. I dunno if it'll work, but it's an idea.

[Drecar]

I can not agree with gating the trail. Gates are an issue that I have everytime I go exploring, I encounter a f*****g gate and my trip is basically wasted. Making matters worse is how tight lipped wheelers are about spots to visit. Perhaps making the trail more difficult to navigate maybe helpful.

I believe leading by example (which the maintenance runs demonstrate) is the most effective way. Maybe if the runs coincided with when these littering basturds are packing up camp or inviting people to learn more about wheeling etiquette may help.

It has been metioned that maybe the garbage cans should be removed. I disagree. I have been on the runs twice and it seems to me the cause of the littering is laziness. Maybe a few more bins might be helpful with signs that state the users of the site are maintaining the site in an effort to keep it open. Also the picnic tables need to be made of concrete and not wood.

Just my 2cents. We must find an effective way to keep trails open and clean.

[whitetrashxj]

i dont really even know what to say, its just getting bad, really bad and we gotta do something soon before it gets closed for good, the cops obviously wont do anything if you give them licence plate numebers or report them so mabey its time that us as wheelers put our foot down and do something about it ourselfs.

[BumpNSpin]

i dont think gates will help... and as for the 4WDABC showing lotsa people the 'lakes' they can find out for themselves or knew anyways... i think that the 4WDABC is doing a great job maintaining the sites thanks to all the volunteers who do come out and help!... what needs to be done now is 'educating' the masses, even the people who think they know... (me too), about the good, the bad, and the reprocussions of their(our) actions.

i think our laws are too 'wishy-washy'... the police "get their man" and the courts throw it out... we need to have the charges stick, fines enforced, and the vehicles confiscated. i think that the police should accept pics showing the perputrator(s) and look into it more seriously and have the courts support them.

:whiteflag:
i think we need to change our outlook on our 'back-yard' and realize that it is Mother Natures and that we are Her guests.... we should help Her out.
:whiteflag:

Philip :cwm30:
Member of the 4WDABC

[Mike Wild]

i dont think gates will help... and as for the 4WDABC showing lotsa people the 'lakes' they can find out for themselves or knew anyways... i think that the 4WDABC is doing a great job maintaining the sites thanks to all the volunteers who do come out and help!... .

Philip :cwm30:
Member of the 4WDABC


I agree that it is great that people are organizing and going down there to clean the place, but I don't agree with all the public advertising of the place. How many threads have you read where newbies ask how to get somewhere, and everybody tells them to go and buy a backroads map book?

Now at every outdoor tradeshow there's a booth set up with people asking everyone that walks by... have you heard of the 4WDABC? Do you know how to get to Hale creek? Here let me show you on a map, look at all the good things we're doing there! Come join us blah blah blah.

Now this message is getting out to anybody who'll listen, yahoo's included. Who then see the pictures and get the idea to load every yahoo friend of theirs into their truck and drag their sorry asses down there to trash the place. What's worse, is that for those idots who can't read a mapbook, or are generally clueless, there's a nice great big sign on the side of road that gets passed by all the yahoo's in cars heading to 20 mile bay saying.. here's Hale Creek, come trash the place, whereas before all the advertising, the place was known to alot of folks, but generally, (and I can only assume here) they found the place by actually exploring around. If idots see this sign, they're more inclined to head down there themselves, and the ratio of yahoo's to responsible campers increases, and the likelyhood of more trash left behind.

What scares me most is that the 4WDABC is looking to repeat their actions at 'other' similar back country camp spots.

Don't get me wrong, I'm totally for your idea of protecting these areas to ensure they don't get shut down, but I think you're simply looking to line your coffers with membership fees as opposed to actually looking for true 4 wheel drive enthusiasts who for the most part in my opinion are more responsible when it comes to these issues.

I'll get off my soap box now
/rant

[BumpNSpin]

ah... "but I think you're simply looking to line your coffers with membership fees" so which is pissing you off more... membership fees or irresponsible people?

i cannot answer questions on membership fees... although i think they are under review and i am thinking Steve might respond to this question... but i paid $15 for a year... $1.25/month and help out occassionally.

$15/yr and i can camp as many times as i want at those lakes... thats a pretty good deal to me... just imagine paying $10/$20 for staying at Loadstone (Whipsaw) this is also looked after by the 4wdabc :soso

i think the percentage/ratio of dumb-asses from 10yrs ago to now is the same... we just have a bigger population today therfore the actual numbers have increased... you cant stop 'Progress'

have you gone to a recent 4wdabc meeting?... if not, you should try it out, waste 2 or 3hrs one night and do it.. then from experience, you can say that you went there and it was a money grab and a waste of your time... i myself, am not much for meetings, i much prefer be out in the 'wild' :) but i do make it to some. :soso
:whiteflag: i'll buy you a drink if ya make it to the next meeting, Mike.

the public advertising thing... have you wheeled in the states?... Washington?.. Utah? down there, you can go into the local Tourist Information Shop and buy maps with all the trails (quad, bike, hiking, wheeling) on them.. all the trails are marked for what type they are and there are no tire marks going up the hiking trails... the fines are big and enforced down there. i think up here, the cities and businesses could make money if it was promoted right... Vedder Mountain is used by so many different people but yet logging will/has come in, then developers in the name of 'Progress' taking away our 'local recreation park'.
there was another thread here about 'trail disclosure' and i voted against it... but there are 'trails' and then there are lakes, picnic areas... more public recreational areas than 'trails' if you know what i mean... and i think there is a difference here between the two.:metoo

come for the drink anyway, Mike Wild :whiteflag:

Philip

[Mike Wild]

Well the drink certainly sounds tempting! :beer_cheers: :D

so which is pissing you off more... membership fees or irresponsible people?

it's not the fee's, my impression is just that it appears that there's a huge recruiting drive to drum up membership. Now I know that the more members onboard, the more of a voice the 4WDABC has. My concern is the roping in of anyone who'll listen and giving them directions on how to get to formerly 'off the beaten track' places.

there was another thread here about 'trail disclosure' and i voted against it... but there are 'trails' and then there are lakes, picnic areas... more public recreational areas than 'trails'

Hale creek once started as a trail, my biggest concern is that it's turning into what you call a 'more public recreational area'

i think the percentage/ratio of dumb-asses from 10yrs ago to now is the same... we just have a bigger population today therfore the actual numbers have increased... you cant stop 'Progress'


That's my main beef, the place used to be fairly secluded, and yes the population is growing and we have bigger numbers, but why are we telling 'all' these people how to get there and putting up signs making it super simple to find? I say promote the 4WDABC to anyone who'll listen, it's got the potential to be a great public voice, but don't dislose trails or camping spots to anyone that wanders by the booth. Let these people find these spots on their own. Buy a backroadsmap book and go exploring.

so.... about that drink, can you ship it to me? :D

[BumpNSpin]

ok... either i misunderstood or need a drink myself :(
i agree with you...
i dont think the 4wdabc should be showing booth passer-bys the way to these lakes either... take their money and get them to help/earn that knowledge :finger_1: :read
i paid my dues lots :shakehead:

as for the drink... not sure if Canada Post allows that :)... could be 'terrorism' or it might get 'lost'... come to the meeting.. it will force me to be there too :(

doh!
the boss is back...

Phil

[sdillen]

This thread has gotten very off-topic, but I think it's all useful discussion.




Now at every outdoor tradeshow there's a booth set up with people asking everyone that walks by... have you heard of the 4WDABC? Do you know how to get to Hale creek? Here let me show you on a map, look at all the good things we're doing there! Come join us blah blah blah.
/rant

Did I speak to you at the Offroad Expo? While I understand your point that the 4WDABC is actively promoting recreation sites which were not previously discussed as openly (which is accurate), I think you misunderstand the message that the 4WDABC has been voicing at any of our events.

While we definitely are showing photographs and telling a story about what I believe is a step forward in public reception of a somewhat non-politically-correct recreational activity, our discussion has been....

"Have you heard of the Four Wheel Drive Association of BC?" 90% of those I speak to haven't. I explain the history of the 4WDABC...from it's formation as a racing sanctioning organization in the '70s through its evolution into what I now consider an advocate of motorized recreational users in land use/legislative issues.

"Here are some of the activities we have been undertaking in recent years." Our objective is to offset the significant negative press surrounding off-road recreation, and as a result we are building a relationship with the provincial government by volunteering to work on these sites.

"Please join us on one of our maintenance runs." Yes, we explain a bit about where the sites are generally located ("West Harrison system", "Whipsaw area"), but these are public recreation sites -- there are instructions posted on (what used to be MOF) web sites, MOF maps, etc., giving directions to the sites. I have not given specific directions to any of these sites -- and I think it'd be irresponsible to do so because:
1. I don't know the capability of the driver/vehicle I'm speaking to -- these trails may be well beyond their comfort level.
2. If I send them to Hale Creek on their own, the 4WDABC will likely not earn their membership/support. This is because either a) they'll go and get scared away from the Association because the trail is too hard, or b) they'll go and find the site and not give the Association another thought.
3. If I take them to the site on a run, I have an opportunity to spread some knowledge, an opportunity to demonstrate what the 4WDABC is all about -- and as a result am much more likely to earn their membership/support.

"Please consider supporting our efforts with your membership." Membership dues barely cover mailing/printing costs of the Backroader. I am expecting that money will come in time through other sources. This year, the cash-flow has primarily been the result of grants, donations and our current winch raffle fundraiser. The drive to increase Association membership is simply to allow the board to step up any governing body to state "We represent the following members of the BC public".

[Tmax]

I personally go to the outdoors to get away from the city and politics. the way I see it, this 4wda is bringing both of those to the peaceful areas. if people want attend meetings, go ahead and join a political party. if you like to maintain polluted area's, go get a job at cultus lake or work for the city. but the way I see it, some people are trying to generate a job and hobby for themselves and using the "do good thing" as an excuse. many newbies find this very interesting and a good thing but I say its because they just don't know any better. I personally don't want know where everything is and rather explore and find out by myself. if you want signs telling you what trail is good, bad, or ugly, then go to an amusement park in the middle of the city instead.

now there is talk of a full time care taker. I guess someone has to pay for that (new job generated right there). so what's next? soon they will tell us how many people are allowed to camp in an are, if you can bring your dog or not, what time you have to go to bed, how big is your fire allowed to be,.....

the way I see it, this is not any different that any politician. first **** things up to start a problem, then try to fix it and pad yourself on the back for doing it.

I still don't see a single thing that 4wda has done that has affected any of my outdoor activities in a postive and productive way. what I do see is a bunch of drop out politicians. sorry but that's how I feel.

[Wil]

I personally go to the outdoors to get away from the city and politics. the way I see it, this 4wda is bringing both of those to the peaceful areas. if people want attend meetings, go ahead and join a political party. if you like to maintain polluted area's, go get a job at cultus lake or work for the city. but the way I see it, some people are trying to generate a job and hobby for themselves and using the "do good thing" as an excuse. many newbies find this very interesting and a good thing but I say its because they just don't know any better. I personally don't want know where everything is and rather explore and find out by myself. if you want signs telling you what trail is good, bad, or ugly, then go to an amusement park in the middle of the city instead.

now there is talk of a full time care taker. I guess someone has to pay for that (new job generated right there). so what's next? soon they will tell us how many people are allowed to camp in an are, if you can bring your dog or not, what time you have to go to bed, how big is your fire allowed to be,.....

the way I see it, this is not any different that any politician. first **** things up to start a problem, then try to fix it and pad yourself on the back for doing it.

I still don't see a single thing that 4wda has done that has affected any of my outdoor activities in a postive and productive way. what I do see is a bunch of drop out politicians. sorry but that's how I feel.

Tmax you are obviously entitled to your opinion but talk about harsh kick in the teeth for some good people that are trying to do a good thing. It's easy to criticize maybe it's time for you to get out and try and change things?

[Tmax]

Tmax you are obviously entitled to your opinion but talk about harsh kick in the teeth for some good people that are trying to do a good thing. It's easy to criticize maybe it's time for you to get out and try and change things?

what good thing are we talking about? i still dont see it. maybe i'm blind. just becuase you say its good dont mean it is. just saying.

as for doing good, i dont like advertising to the world. some people only do things if they get recognition for it and not because they really belive in it. you'll know what i'm talking about in a few years.
:beer_cheers:

[canucksafari]

Tmax most of your posts are pretty right on but I have to disagree about your reading on the 4WDABC.

There is growing pressure on access to trails and roads on crown land. And there are a lot of people who would like to eliminate 4Bs for many different reasons. If we didn't have a group like the 4WDABC advocating for us with government trying to undo the damage done by a few idots and also trying to teach the new wheelers how to wheel safely, we would soon be seeing our access closed and our sport killed on all land expcept private land. Just ask the Australians what their 4 Wheel drive associaltions did and are doing for them and what would happen if they didn't have them. Want proof of what could happen? Look at what happened at the Scale Bar. Government usually finds it easier to close things rather than police them.
This is precisely why I joined the 4WDABC last spring. If it can keep the trails on crown land open and teach even a few people how to wheel safely, then they have done more than enough for me.

[Tmax]

well I still don't know of any significant areas that has been closed that should not have. everyone thinks they are fighting a new battle here but these problems have been around for ever. as long as there is forestry, there will be roads and trails to enjoy.

by giving power to one group, you will have to follow their rules and guidelines. at this point we all hope that things are going to be in our flavor but what happens when this group decides to cater to other groups like all the green people. this has already happened in the ATV world in BC and that's why I no longer own a quad. enjoy wheeling while you can. if this is the direction, things will be much diffrent in the future.

[BumpNSpin]

TMax
from other threads on this site, you are well recognized for your help :)

i believe, if i join a group, then i will have a say in the 'flavour' and 'direction'... if i sit out, then what can i say? "maybe i coulda made a difference??"

Phil

[Tmax]

i believe, if i join a group, then i will have a say in the 'flavour' and 'direction'... if i sit out, then what can i say? "maybe i coulda made a difference??"

Phil

thats a great point.
:beer_cheers:

[lars]

I have to echo Wil's and Canucksafari's sentiments, here, Tmax. The leave-us-alone attitude is doomed to failure because that's what we've had for years and it's getting us nowhere. Rec sites are getting gated, trails are getting shut down. We need to protect what's ours. No one is putting up signs or talking about the location of the hardcore trails at these expos, but I still see beer cans and other crap left all over the trail (usually near the hard spots).

The Association isn't responsible for the idiots reaching the trails. They've been doing that for some time, now. What the Association is doing is giving us a voice and hopefully power. To suggest that the Association is thinking of setting up caretakers for these sites is just ridiculous. They're doing the opposite. By taking care of Sunrise and Hale, they're weakening the case for the gov't to setup a caretaker there.

Personally, I would love for the 4WDABC to have enough money to pay a professional lobbyist. We need someone who can devote their time to attend all these land use meetings and make sure us fourwheelers are recognized as stakeholders in these decisions.



...lars

[lars]

well I still don't know of any significant areas that has been closed that should not have.
Harbourview Rd in Sooke. TLC bought it. If we had a concentrated lobby, we might've had a chance to oppose it. Might've been able to convince Mapleridge to allow access to Blue Mtn, too. Who knows?



everyone thinks they are fighting a new battle here but these problems have been around for ever. as long as there is forestry, there will be roads and trails to enjoy.
New forest roads aren't really the same as old forest roads. And forestry companies have been pretty loose with all the gates they're willing to put up. I understand their security concerns, up to a point.



by giving power to one group, you will have to follow their rules and guidelines.
at this point we all hope that things are going to be in our flavor but what happens when this group decides to cater to other groups like all the green people. this has already happened in the ATV world in BC and that's why I no longer own a quad. enjoy wheeling while you can. if this is the direction, things will be much diffrent in the future.
Can you tell us more about this? I don't know anything about the ATV scene or history.

...lars

[Tmax]

sorry lars for tha rant. this was posted by steve this morning:


Enforcement -- I'll talk to MTSA further about this, but I am convinced that this is an issue they are experiencing in all of their sites.....and short of having an on-site caretaker (Weaver/Wood Lake/Chehalis/etc) I'm not sure what alternatives are available.

[sdillen]

Personally, I would love for the 4WDABC to have enough money to pay a professional lobbyist. We need someone who can devote their time to attend all these land use meetings and make sure us fourwheelers are recognized as stakeholders in these decisions.



...lars

Me too. That's my long term vision. This year is "rebuild the association with a clear direction". I believe that the trick is to take small, meaningful steps and to ensure that whatever the association takes on, we establish a rock-solid track record of delivering to that commitment -- while not biting off more than we can chew.

I'm finding that second part to be harder than I expected!!!!!!!

[Tmax]

Can you tell us more about this? I don't know anything about the ATV scene or history.

...lars

to make a long story short, once you are funded by the government, you will have to go by their rules and make them happy. some atv groups are trying to have some trails designated for atv only. on the other hand, soon all other tails will be off limit to atv's since they got their own area. this is their direction. they are also collecting fees for the memebership without doing anything in return. its one huge big mess. if you like ot find out more, check out www.quads.ca (http://www.quads.ca)
:beer_cheers:

[Wil]

what good thing are we talking about? i still dont see it. maybe i'm blind. just becuase you say its good dont mean it is. just saying.

as for doing good, i dont like advertising to the world. some people only do things if they get recognition for it and not because they really belive in it. you'll know what i'm talking about in a few years.
:beer_cheers:

Good deeds are one thing, I'm not saying you don't do them because obviously from the Whipsaw thread you go out of your way but what I'm talking about here is political direct action, burying your head in the sand and saying everything is ok, we can follow the status quo because even though we are losing areas to access we still have some left is wrong. Eventually we will have nothing and the bottomline is it's because we have no political momentum. Our individual voices just do not matter to the politicians and bureaucrats that make the DECISIONS on our sport.

As far as access goes, we have lost Harbourview in Sooke (one of the best wheeling areas in BC), 25yrs ago we had access to Grouse Mtn and how about some of the roads behind the Chief in Squamish and the best at the time local area which is McNutt.

You'll know what I'm talking about in a few years:beer_cheers:

[Tmax]

Good deeds are one thing, I'm not saying you don't do them because obviously from the Whipsaw thread you go out of your way but what I'm talking about here is political direct action, burying your head in the sand and saying everything is ok, we can follow the status quo because even though we are losing areas to access we still have some left is wrong. Eventually we will have nothing and the bottomline is it's because we have no political momentum. Our individual voices just do not matter to the politicians and bureaucrats that make the DECISIONS on our sport.

As far as access goes, we have lost Harbourview in Sooke (one of the best wheeling areas in BC), 25yrs ago we had access to Grouse Mtn and how about some of the roads behind the Chief in Squamish and the best at the time local area which is McNutt.

You'll know what I'm talking about in a few years:beer_cheers:


:cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

cool. see you in a few years.
:beer_cheers:

BTW when was the last time you trusted a politican?

[lars]

BTW when was the last time you trusted a politican?
Well, look at it this way: there are people on both sides of every issue. So on every issue, there are some people who are happy with the politicians' work.

I'm sure the anti-motorized rec people are glad the politicians are blocking access to Blue Mtn, Eagle Ridge (technically), and that they sold Harbourview to the Land Conservancy.

We need to coalesce into a single, unified group if we want to be recognized as a significant voice and voting bloc.



...lars

[Wes Rempel]

:cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

cool. see you in a few years.
:beer_cheers:

BTW when was the last time you trusted a politican?

His name was Chuck Cadman. He was my MP

[lars]

sorry lars for tha rant. this was posted by steve this morning:
Enforcement -- I'll talk to MTSA further about this, but I am convinced that this is an issue they are experiencing in all of their sites.....and short of having an on-site caretaker (Weaver/Wood Lake/Chehalis/etc) I'm not sure what alternatives are available.

That doesn't mean that the 4WDABC is advocating for on-site caretakers.

Steve is simply saying that he doesn't see a sure-fire solution to the garbage problem.

But the 4WDABC's goal isn't to clean-up campsites. It is to establish good relations with the MTSA and to represent the interests of fourwheelers in the issue of land use. Stewardship of a few sites is one way of building up our credentials and relationship.

In other words, don't confuse the garbage issue with the aims of the 4WDABC.
An on-site caretaker may be the only reliable solution to keeping garbage to a minimum at Hale, but it is not something that the 4WDABC would necessarily be advocating, because it doesn't fit with our philosophy of keeping the backcountry accessible.


...lars

[Wil]

:cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

cool. see you in a few years.
:beer_cheers:

BTW when was the last time you trusted a politican?

I don't, but I also believe that there are a LOT of outdoorsmen/women in this province that don't support the greenie agenda but we don't put our voice forward in a manner that get's noticed within the power structure, either we play the game or we fade away is my belief.

As a case in point check out this bulletin board : http://bmmc.s4.bizhat.com/

It's purpose is to voice the concerns of the off road motorcycle community that is currently facing pressure to be excluded from Blue Mtn, sound familiar to anyone? If I recall correctly when the 4x4 crowd was facing extinction from Blue Mtn the off road dirt bike community did not exactly take a strong stand and support us against the closure of McNutt, fast forward 5yrs and now they are the ones being shut out. Now the 4x4 community has no stake in the issue so we aren't doing anything to support them. One by one the dominoes fall.

[Tmax]

cool. glad I got to express my opinions. I hope I'm wrong though. how about we have a conversation like this say in a year from now and see how the progress has been.

:beer_cheers: :beer_cheers: :beer_cheers: :beer_cheers: :beer_cheers:


Steve I wish you would have addressed my questions and concerns but I guess this is not the first time.:soso

[gavman]

I invested the membership $$$ in the 4WDABC this year.

Right now the association is the only voice we have (AFAIK) and i feel comforted to know that SOME of the four-wheelers in our community are not just talking but actually doing something about access to trails and other issues that affect or will affect us.

I feel at a minimum we all as 4-wheelers NEED to support this group in their efforts because any other alternatives seem non existent at this time.

Steve and the gang are doing a great job and i wish them every success and encouragement in the next few months and years...

[4Lo]

I think we need to get with the atv clubs, the dirtbike clubs and the hiking clubs to gather enough voice on land use to take to the gov't. One group alone is not even a drop in the bucket. Power in #'s.

I say start gathering peoples names on paper (sort of like a petition) and have 1 or 2 reps from each club get together, set up a meeting or two and discuss with gov't officials how something can be done.

[tomc121]

Before i joined the 4WDABC I new where most of the trails were, I joined because i wanted to meet new people to wheel with, and people who were not part of the problem but part of the solution. I have read many threads on BC4x4.com where people have said they did not want to show newbeys where the trails were, they wanted them to join them so they could see if they were ok and would respect the trails and pack out what they pack in ect.
I think it is good that the 4WDABC is educating the public about the same things, and cleaning up after the party pigs who need educating with a big stick.

My humble opinion is some people have respect for the camp sites and some people have no respect for themselves.
my 2 cents

[canucksafari]

BTW when was the last time you trusted a politican?

I agree, many politicians are pretty much self centered creatures who are always looking to work an angle to ensure they get elected and stay in power. So ya, like most people I don't trust them but that doesn't mean we shouldn't use them.:soso Politicians are looking for that political capital which will get them elected. I have even had a few say that directly to me when i have spoken with them about other issues. A few people complaining or applauding them means nothing but a province wide organization with hundreds or thousands of members with good media and the support of local business could make or break their re-election. An association - like the 4WDABC - is the only way to go. Any money we take from Gov has to be on our terms. Associations only run into problems like you speak of when they get a large professional staff who start to think like civil servants. As long as the Association is a grass roots organization and directed by its members it won't be a problem.

I see there is a 4WDABC Region 2 meeting coming up on Sept 25 so hope everyone who gives a damn will be there if they can.

[Regger]

well I still don't know of any significant areas that has been closed that should not have. everyone thinks they are fighting a new battle here but these problems have been around for ever. as long as there is forestry, there will be roads and trails to enjoy.


Tmax, I dont know if I'm quoting you in the right context, but in terms of camping areas, not so much getting closed down, but that have been taken over by private companies and now require payment to camp has been increasing over the years considerably...

Weaver and wood lake on the west side, now requires payment to camp. Weaver even gets gated for the winter.. This was never the case when I was camping up there as a kid over 15yrs ago... I even believe 20 mile bay is now a pay site..

The next sites would have been Hale, Francis, Sunrise, Lookout, had the 4wdabc not taken them over and kept them free sites..

And to add more salt on the wound... All the sites along the Chilliwack river (Tamahi, Chipmunk Creek, Bench FSR, etc.) areas are mostly run by one guy that requires payment at those sites... He's making so much money and doing so well at those sites, he's heading across the river.. the Fraser river that is,... and has signed agreements for three sites on the East side of Harrison Lake. Now I'm not sure which sites they are, or if they were free or pay sites in the past, but it just goes to show that we are losing these wonderful camping area's to companies only out to make a buck... And to top it off, if you want a fire, you can only burn the wood which they supply, at a hefty cost of course!!!..
- All this info was told to me by the caretaker himself a few weeks ago when my Parents were camping at his Tamahi campsite..


So the way I see it, the 4wdabc, is keeping the handful of good campsites free for as long as they can handle the maintenance and agreements for those sites.. That in itself, is what the 4wdabc is doing for me!!...

Now what am I doing to help the 4wdabc... I coordinate the merchandise, so all the members volunteering at these sights look damn good in 4wdabc swag!!!

Ryan...

[tomc121]

Tmax why Don't you join 4WDABC and see how many changes you can help with in the next year.

[Mike Wild]

Tmax why Don't you join 4WDABC and see how many changes you can help with in the next year.

this is like invasion of the body snatchers...:cwm30:
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y112/mikewild/body_snatchers.jpg


































so Sass, ya gonna join? :cwm25:

[lornix]

this is like invasion of the body snatchers...:cwm30:
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y112/mikewild/body_snatchers.jpg



Ha ha ha ha ha ha, man, that's gotta be the best post of the year! Somebody give Mike Wild a plaque or something!!

:laugh:laugh:laugh

[Bronco Boy]

Somebody give Mike Wild a plaque or something!!
How about a Brownie Badge? :laugh :laugh

http://www.girlguiding.org.uk/brownies/badges/images/camper.gif

[lornix]

I joined because i wanted to meet new people to wheel with, and people who were not part of the problem but part of the solution.

X2!

Ha ha ha, Bronco Boy! LOL!

[tomc121]

LOL you guys are too funny :laugh :laugh :laugh

[4Lo]

I wanna brownie badge. :laugh

I'm going to the sept 25 meeting fo sho.