Need advice on Lockers

[physcofreerider]

Ok, im not exactly on a high budget here so what would be a good a choice to start with?

I have a 5.29 Gear ratio with a Detroit Tru Trac Posi in the rear on my 86 Toyota.

Would it be good to put the Posi up front with a Detroit Locker in the rear or chuck the Posi and put 2 reliable lockers in without the price of Detroit ? Im still new but Lockers would be nice for a noobie:redneck

I have IFS if that makes any difference.

[dhoffryn]

Do you have a winch yet?

[physcofreerider]

Yeah, i got a WARN 8000/lb

[jeepinwhores]

I'd save your cash from the front locker and go SAS. That IFS will limit you regardless of if the front is locked or not. If your not busting the diff itself, you'll be limited by wheel travel and excessive wear of front end components from beating on it with larger tires and the locker. In the end I guess it all comes down to how you intend to use your rig.

[d0ubledown]

toy ifs isnt that bad for moderate wheeling. many a non sas'd yota run 33-35's and wheel pretty hard. some break, most dont. it all depends on how you drive it. remember...the toy 7.5" IFS front is much more stout than the jeep 30/35's and can handle 35's no problem. people are too quick to jump on the 'sas it' bandwagon, before realizing what the guy wants to do with his truck.

freerider: is your truck your DD? do you want an ultimate crawler or a decent trail rider that can handle mild obstacles? i say either:

a) if your tru trac is good enough for you..run one up front...or an aussie.

b) if you want a locked rear...get a detroit. or weld it & run a TT or aussie up front.

c) break your bank and go double selectables. elocker out back or dual arbs. transparent on the street...and full lock at the flick of a switch.

[jeepinwhores]

people are too quick to jump on the 'sas it' bandwagon, before realizing what the guy wants to do with his truck.

True enough, no wagon jumping here, hence my question regarding how he intends to use it. I made my recomendation under the premise that in most cases when someone is considering running non selectables both front and rear, they are tend to lean more on the side of moderate to heavy wheeling in which case an SAS would be a potential future upgrade.

freerider, I agree with doubledown. Decide how you want to use it and base your locker/ls decision on that.

[lars]

remember...the toy 7.5" IFS front is much more stout than the jeep 30/35's and can handle 35's no problem.

I won't argue dimensions with you but I will point out that the Dana 30's have been surprisingly robust, based on the ones I've seen running 35" tires. I'll agree that the D35 rear is crap, but the D30 front has been surprisingly good.


people are too quick to jump on the 'sas it' bandwagon, before realizing what the guy wants to do with his truck.

Very true. There's a lot you can do with just a little bit of extra ground clearance and decent tires. SAS definitely has benefits but it has costs as well, and those costs can be very high if you're not equipped to do the conversion yourself.

An SAS could also result in a failure to pass a VI, too.


...lars

[physcofreerider]

So as for a budget goes, it makes sense it throw the Posi Trac up front or put an Aussie up front and put a Detroit Locker in the rear. Im not gonna be a mud bogger or rock crawler or wild trail 4x4'r . Just your weekend/day warrior looking for a fun weekend trip or somthing. Probably more so going up to old abandoned towns lie Britannia or check out the Caroline mines or hitting the Whipsaw up in Hedley to check that mine out.

[d0ubledown]

your 8" rear locker wont fit into your 7.5" front differential. if ya wanna keep costs low...just put in an aussie or lockright or even another TT up front. if you really have a hard on for a rear locker...sell the posi n get a detroit, or weld that bad boy up. :welder

[physcofreerider]

Ok cool thank you.

[physcofreerider]

Lockright lockers from Trail Gear, looking at them, not really expensive, are they pretty decent for the money. I know most stuff is, you get what you pay for but how does this category fit with lock-rights. Remember, 86 Toyota i got with a Detroit Posi and IFS upfront with manual locking hubs. Is the Lock-Right locker that much better than the Posi?

[michael]

you get what you pay for
the lunchboxs are not like a detroit, they do not unlock for steering like a real detroit
I wouldnt run one, same for the trutrac but that is just my opinion

[u2slow]

Is the Lock-Right locker that much better than the Posi?

Like day vs. night.

[lars]

you get what you pay for
the lunchboxs are not like a detroit, they do not unlock for steering like a real detroit
I wouldnt run one, same for the trutrac but that is just my opinion

Michael, they DO unlock. The problem is that the ones I've tried have a lot of backlash.


...lars

[d0ubledown]

how does the TT ride out back? is it unpredictable? never tried a posi out back, so i cant compare that to an autolocker..but IMO, just weld that sucker up till you can dish out for a proper locker like a detroit or arb or elocker...

but what do i know? :confused:

[4runnin]

Lars is absolutely write. I run a Richmond (lock rite) in my rear and it unlocks during cornering, but its got a ton of lash. I can literly role my truck a couple of inches when in park. All the movement comes from the slop in the locker. When driving at sertain speeds I get a vibration when the gear goes from coast to drive sides of the ring gear.

[physcofreerider]

Tru Trac is in the rear, i was also looking at Aussie lockers. Im a noobie but i can't exactly dish out 700.00 for a Detroit. So i was looking at cheaper lockers. Im not gonna be a mud bogger or rock crawler or anything heavy. Explore some trails, go up to mine sites etc. Cross the odd river, go through the odd muddy sections, ruts etc. Steep hills, but not do anything silly like the Sluce Box or go through mud up to my doors.

[d0ubledown]

Im not gonna be a mud bogger or rock crawler or anything heavy. Explore some trails, go up to mine sites etc. Cross the odd river, go through the odd muddy sections, ruts etc. Steep hills, but not do anything silly like the Sluce Box or go through mud up to my doors.

sounds pretty much what a TT is intended for. is it not doing what you want it to do? if it is but you still want more traction, throw in an aussie or lockrite up front?

[4runnin]

I think if your not sure on what u shoud do is ........................................... go dual cases and that will answer all your problems.lol

[Tmax]

how does the TT ride out back? is it unpredictable? never tried a posi out back, so i cant compare that to an autolocker..but IMO, just weld that sucker up till you can dish out for a proper locker like a detroit or arb or elocker...

but what do i know? :confused:

trutrack is not a posi unit. its a torssion diff. works great for front (or back) and you dont even know its there. sorta has the best of both worlds.

[u2slow]

trutrack is not a posi unit. its a torssion diff. works great for front (or back) and you dont even know its there.

Still has the irritating feature of 'opening up' like a posi does when you sink one tire really good. :soso

The main difference I see with the torsen over the posi is the elimination of the clutch pack preload.

[Tmax]

Still has the irritating feature of 'opening up' like a posi does when you sink one tire really good. :soso

The main difference I see with the torsen over the posi is the elimination of the clutch pack preload.

when that happens, you need to touch your breaks a bit and the wheel with traction will lock up. if you dont do this, the true track is uselss. the original H1 uses torssion diffs till 99 and thats what you need to do with them to lock them up.

[u2slow]

when that happens, you need to touch your breaks a bit and the wheel with traction will lock up.

FWIW, I haven't owned one to know. I do know my posi likes to slip no matter what I do.

Truetrac has a (recommended) tire size limitation.... no? I know I'm going straight to a Detroit if I'm going through the effort and additional expense (bearings) to install a full-case locker.

I Lockrighted my front axle. This is my new minimum-acceptable level of traction. It outshines a Dana Powr-Lok - i.e. no comparison. Changing the diff oil is all the motivation I need I install one.

It seems to me the amount of backlash will vary with the axle ratio; less with 3.54 - more with 5.29.

[lars]

FWIW, I haven't owned one to know. I do know my posi likes to slip no matter what I do.

Truetrac has a (recommended) tire size limitation.... no? I know I'm going straight to a Detroit if I'm going through the effort and additional expense (bearings) to install a full-case locker.

Even the Detroit Softlocker has a rated tire size. I _think_ a Dana 44 (and probably the Toyota mini truck axle, too) Detroit is only warrantied up to 35" tires.

Of course, I've seen more True Tracs die than Detroits. That's saying a lot, considering how few True Trac-equipped 4x4s I have personally seen.


It seems to me the amount of backlash will vary with the axle ratio; less with 3.54 - more with 5.29.

Backlash was bad enough with 3.55 gears on my YJ. The backlash is due to the meshing tolerances geared "biscuits" on the Lockright, and not related (in this case) to the pinion/ring gear backlash.


...lars

[u2slow]

Backlash was bad enough with 3.55 gears on my YJ. The backlash is due to the meshing tolerances geared "biscuits" on the Lockright, and not related (in this case) to the pinion/ring gear backlash.


...lars

What I'm getting at is the amount of driveshaft rotation required before the locker biscuits cannot slip anymore. Not the R&P backlash.

Of course, that's my take on "overall backlash" - might not be what you're talking about. ;)

[michael]

the lunch boxes may unlock sometimes for cornering, but it certainly doesnt do it as often or as smoothly as a real detroit
my household has two 78 broncos, one that has tried a few lunchboxes and mine has dual detroits.
driven both quite a bit, I will never buy a lunchbox locker.

this is my second detroit equiped 4x4

[4runnin]

not quite sure what your sayin here............ your detroit unlocks much more than lunch box locker but does it smoothly????

[physcofreerider]

Well, my dad gave me the truck with what it's equipped with now. Warn 8000lb winch, BFG Mudd terrains 235/R16/85's and a Detroit Tru-Trac Posi Lock ( apparently it doesn't exist? thats not what the receipt said) with 5.29 gears. He used the truck strictly for hunting. Now that I own it and i want to take it wheeling and go places he didn't go thats why I want at least a rear locker. I can't afford a Detroit Locker so im wondering how Aussies or Lock Rights are. 19 soon, on a budget, work on call so i don't have lots of money.

[michael]

well you are never going to find the word "Posi" used by Detroit as that is a Chevy word
the Tru-trac is a limited slip so the word "Lock" probably will not be associated with it either
dunno who told you it didn't exist.

Aussies and lockrights are "ok" but not great
run them until you can afford a detroit and with any luck you can sell them

[4runnin]

I realize what your asking. If you havent got much cash to put into lockers IMO I would throw in some auto lockers there very cheap and pretty reliable. (or go cheaper and weld it)
I think theres more than enough info here in this thread to make an educated decision yourself.:beer

[Tmax]

well you are never going to find the word "Posi" used by Detroit as that is a Chevy word
the Tru-trac is a limited slip so the word "Lock" probably will not be associated with it either
dunno who told you it didn't exist.

Aussies and lockrights are "ok" but not great
run them until you can afford a detroit and with any luck you can sell them


trutrack is not a posi.
:cwm18:






































;) ;) :D :D

[michael]

the only thing that is a "posi" is the crap GM put in 10 bolts and 12 bolts

[Tmax]

the only thing that is a "posi" is the crap GM put in 10 bolts and 12 bolts


trutrack is not a posi, track lock, limited slip, t track or any other kinda clutch type traction device. you can have 100% lock with it if you know how it funtions.

[michael]

looks like it functions the same as an open dif

[d0ubledown]

yeah...i didnt mean the TT to be a posi as it never really locks. people that i know that run it say they have to either apply brake or ebrake to coax or engage it to split the torque. most often than not it doesnt provide the necessary traction.

all this posi/lsd/autolock/backlash stuff is too confusing. put in double selectables and be done with it. :clown

[snoitatnemal]

so, about selectables... electric locker or air locker? is one better than the other?

[4runnin]

IMO air lockers are better, also more expensive due to the fact that u need more to run them (air compresor, air ways)
Ive heard from some that run elockers that they dont always engage??? dont know why, maybe a wireing issue, who knows??
They also have a whole lot of components hangin off the 3rd. Dont know how many times this gets smashed??
Dont personaly run either, Ive got auto lockers, but this is just some of what ive heard and read.
The bonus of haveing on board air to run your lockers is always nice for airing up after a long day of wheeling. U can laugh at all the fools paying for it at the gas station........lol

[u2slow]

Selectable is spool or open. :cwm36:

Sorry, I like how the auto-lockers toggle on/off with the skinny pedal. :redneck

[michael]

selectables are useless IMO
more junk to go wrong and when they are working correctly you are stuck with a spool's driving characteristics

[d0ubledown]

no issues with my selectables. and FWIW, with the toy elocker, IF it were to be stuck, you can manually unlock it. yes selectables have more moving parts. yes its more expensive. yes you'll have more issues with improper installation/servicing. i havent killed any of my elockers...and im not even running an elocker guard. maybe i dont wheel hard enough.. :laugh

of course selectable is spool or open..thats the beauty of it! id rather be in control as to when i want 100% traction...

[michael]

id rather be in control as to when i want 100% traction...

which is why I wouldnt run a selectable

[d0ubledown]

of course..different strokes for different folks. my truck is my DD...so i want street manners on the street. if i had a dedicated trail rig..sure. weld'er up front & rear. besides...wheeling open/open challenges you to be a better wheeler...i'll hit those switches when i need it and only then!

:beer

[4runnin]

wheeling open/open challenges you to be a better wheeler...i'll hit those switches when i need it and only then!

Great point Sonny. Haveing the ability to lockup when U want gives the driver the choice to try a harder line with an open diff, then if needed lock it up. This will better the drivers sense of dirrection when chooseing a line and in the end be a better driver on the trail.

[u2slow]

wheeling open/open challenges you to be a better wheeler...

Next time I have to wrench on my junk, I'll try to do the job with rocks & sticks. Only after I fail miserably will I break out the real tools. :laugh :laugh :laugh :poke:

[d0ubledown]

some can do more with rocks & sticks than others can with the real tools :laugh :poke: :laugh

[4runnin]

use your sticks and stones to build youself a selectable:laugh :laugh :laugh

[littlebigfoot]

I use detroit lockers front and rear. I like then the way they are. Nice and simple no air lines or seals to leak. I have a fullsize truck and on the road I hardly notice them. Sometimes I hear them when it's wet and thats it. I thick its better to just be locked up and pick the line you should do be your ability and the capability of your truck. Just my 2 cents.

[4runnin]

Ya Mike, thats somewhat my opinion aswell...................... but just for kicks can u install a selectable in the ford useing sticks and stones :laugh :laugh :laugh

[miller]

My advice since you're asking for it is to never ever spend the money on a full detroit for a toy. Either weld it by someone that knows what they are doing, buy an aussie lunchbox locker (no tire limmit on warranty if I recall correctly) or an elocker (cheaper or the same price as a full detroit depending on the deal you get).

For you, I'd throw out your limited slip and buy an ausie locker if you're worried about a welded diff. If you're not, get someone that knows what they're doing and weld up your diff. I personally liked the way my welded drove much more than my aussie drives, less..no drivetrail slop, banging, clicking noises, or lurching.

You'll find that most domestic drivers will push the full detroit and frown on welding diffs (at least that's what I've experienced). Just take advice from people that run what you run. Some stuff works great on some vehicles and sometimes that same stuff is a waste of money for others.

[michael]

mine is a daily driver as well
detroits front and rear

welded sucks. doesnt matter what it is in. it flat out sucks.
but it is cheaper short term.

[lars]

Selectable is spool or open. :cwm36:

Sorry, I like how the auto-lockers toggle on/off with the skinny pedal. :redneck
Some selectables are limited slip or spool.

And auto-lockers don't necessarily unlock based on your throttle use. By default, they're engaged unless one wheel turns faster than the differential (eg: driving around a corner with good traction).

I'd like to have ARBs simply so I could do what Sonny mentioned: try obstacles with open diffs. But I couldn't justify the added expense particularly since my Jeep is trail-only.




...lars

[Bronco Boy]

I'd like to have ARBs simply so I could do what Sonny mentioned: try obstacles with open diffs.
Or spend the day wheeling in 2wd because you broke a front axle shaft in the first 10 minutes. When you need a little extra help, flip on the front ARB. Happened to me on Saturday and made having the ARB worth it........once again! http://www3.telus.net/cbradley/Smileys/thumbs_up_1.gif

[lars]

Or spend the day wheeling in 2wd because you broke a front axle shaft in the first 10 minutes. When you need a little extra help, flip on the front ARB. Happened to me on Saturday and made having the ARB worth it........once again! http://www3.telus.net/cbradley/Smileys/thumbs_up_1.gif
How did the ARB help you deal with a broken shaft? It still could've turned.

...lars

[Bronco Boy]

How did the ARB help you deal with a broken shaft? It still could've turned.
Rather than unlocking both hubs, I just unlocked the right (broken) side, leaving the left side locked. This way, while in 4wd, the power went to the broken side, no big deal. When I needed extra traction, flip on the ARB, which gave me power to the left side.

Basically, it saved me from having to lock/unlock the hubs all day long.

[sdillen]

Rather than unlocking both hubs, I just unlocked the right (broken) side, leaving the left side locked. This way, while in 4wd, the power went to the broken side, no big deal. When I needed extra traction, flip on the ARB, which gave me power to the left side.

Basically, it saved me from having to lock/unlock the hubs all day long.

Ah. I was confused -- it saved you having to lock/unlock ONE hub through the rest of the day (assuming you wanted to use 2L for other trail sections). I broke a front axle shaft (more accurately...broke the ears off my passenger side slip yoke) on the March 4wdabc West Harrison run and simply unlocked my passenger side hub and drove the rest of the way off the trail in 3wd (lock-right).

[lars]

Yeah, I was confused, too. So basically, it gave you 2wd low. If I did the same thing in my Jeep, I guess I'd unlock the broken side's hub, and get 3wd (front Detroit). For 2wd low...I guess I'd just shift into 2wd low. ;-)

So your truck broken again, eh? Crappy.


...lars

[sdillen]

So your truck broken again, eh? Crappy.


...lars

Mine? Parts are on my desk at the moment...if those pesky things called "work" and "family" and "life" don't get in my way too much I'll be good to go in a few days. Either that or my kids are going to shoot me!

[Bronco Boy]

So your truck broken again, eh? Crappy.
Yup, broken again. Broke the ears off the inner and outer shafts...clean!

http://chrisb.users.superford.org/Bronco/Trip_Reports/2007/May_12-07_@_Norrish_Creek_12.JPG



Also noticed last night that my right upper balljoint now has a 1/16" gap between the balljoint nut and the "C" of the axle. WTF! Good thing for cotter pins!

[michael]

still using c clips?

wonder if the axle C is done in or just the knuckle
hope it wasnt a rare axle cause your driving around on busted joints just killed it
maybe you just crushed a balljoint though.

[Bronco Boy]

still using c clips?

wonder if the axle C is done in or just the knuckle
hope it wasnt a rare axle cause your driving around on busted joints just killed it
maybe you just crushed a balljoint though.
You mean the c-clip on the axle shaft? If so, that side hasn't had one for 5 years; but it will when I fix it.

As for the balljoint, I'm baffled. I triple checked all the nuts. I'm hoping the axle C isn't hooped. The axle housing is a '78.5 F-150 SuperCab. Nothing special, but money to replace regardless.

I might pull it apart tonight. If not, then tomorrow night.

[4runnin]

maybe U2slow can lend U his sticks and stones to help fix your axle.......:laugh :laugh :laugh
to bad to here your broke again.................. that sucks

[u2slow]

maybe U2slow can lend U his sticks and stones to help fix your axle.......:laugh :laugh :laugh


Sure thing. I'm not using them. :clown

I'm more of a do the job right the first time with the right tools anyhow. :poke:

Gotta see if I can get my Detroit in the truck before May long. :D

[michael]

if you need measurements on the C let me know I can put a caliper on a 78 or 79 bronco d44