Can4x4 offroad park

[remy]

Last issue of Can4x4 magazine touched on starting an offroad park, but the current issue doesn't have much of a follow up. http://can4x4.com/offroadpark is supposed to be up with more information by now, but as of this morning isn't ready.

At a high level Al's original proposal was something along the lines of for $5000 each, maybe less, 100 wheelers would have $500,000 to invest in some property that they would then own. You can find hundreds of hectares for that kind of money (1km² is 100 hectares-you need a lot of hectares or you've just got a camp site with a couple rocks) if you get away from the major urban centres.

So many people end up putting way more than that into their vehicle, which depreciates in value while property goes up. Why not stop complaining about being banned from areas and put your money where you mouth is and do something?

He hasn't come up with any details yet, but it was certainly an interesting concept to me. Would others be interested in investing in building a park like this so you'd have unlimited year around guaranteed wheeling rights?

[EHeye]

100 year lease from the Indians I think would be a better idea.

[MudKick]

This was extensivly debated on Island4x4 about a month back...

The conclusion: "logistical nigthmare".

[jeeponrock]

This was extensivly debated on Island4x4 about a month back...

The conclusion: "logistical nigthmare".

Got a link?

[MudKick]

http://monkeycage.island4x4.com/showthread.php?t=31676:beer

[Wes Rempel]

Logistical nightmare is the end result as Al is stating no business plan is needed. It does not matter if it is for profit or non-profit, when you have half a mill $$ and that many people and such, a plan is definitely needed so that there are no surprizes, everyone knows what is going to happen.

No person in their right mind would invest any sum of money into any venture that does not have a plan!

[lars]

I think it'd require some kind of management setup like a strata council. And once you have that, you either have to require people to put in maintenance (legal and physical) money. To avoid investors coughing up money every year, you could collect user fees but then that requires someone to man a gate. Speaking of which, some of that physical maintenance would involve repairing vandalized gates. And if you start charging people money to use the area, then you run into heavy liability issues (I think).

I like the idea but for it to be practical, I think it'd have to be a break-even or profit-making business in order to pay for up-keep.

...lars

[McJeep]

There are definitely things to be thought out etc. It's in the "research" phase right now and things are pretty busy so is not on the front burner for a few weeks. Liability issues and equipment security, and ownership details will alllll have to be sorted out of course, but this certainly woudn't be an overnight thing. It's a concept at this point. 'Would certainly be great to have our (read wheelers) own space to do as we please etc - whether it actually becomes a "feasible" reality is yet to be seen. If it does turn out to be doable, there's still the location to be dealt with in order for enough people to be able to get to it to spark enough ownership interest. Many many details but it certainly hasn't been dropped.

Rob

[wild_ride]

The local karting community did something similar to what is being proposed when they built the track in chilliwack.
The real difference, however, is that there are many more opportunities for revenue with the track, as it is rented to all the local clubs and this money pays the mortgage so to speak. The point is if you have enough people actually committed on the administration end it could be done, but the logistics, even on paper, are dizzying. We can only imagine what else would come up if and when it got put in to motion...
Also the legal issue comes up if and when someone is injured- there are severel offroad parks in the states, maybe if someone takes this initiative we could research what has worked well there?

[Chet]

The legal issue with injuries has to be covered already somewhere or you would have no theme parks, public events etc anywhere.

[DMMcG]

The legal issue with injuries has to be covered already somewhere or you would have no theme parks, public events etc anywhere.


Same concept as a ski hill, except people pay for their own "lifts".

[remy]

Let's turn this hypothetical. Assuming there aren't unsurmountable liability issues, and somebody else does all the organizational work, and an appropriate parcle of land can be found in the right location would you be interested in knowing more about this with the intention to put up $5k or whatever barring any issues?

How would you set organize this so that you would be interested in investing your own money?

[S.C. Offroad]

our company is willing to invest the 5K, but we would definetly need to see some sort of plan... I'm not opposed to putting this money into something like this, but I am opposed to throwing it out the window. Like others have said, who does the up keep, repairs, legal obligations? are others gonna be pissed that there volunteering more of there time for free to up keep and repair the park?
It's like living with friends its fun at first then all the little things come out and everyones pissed

[McJeep]

Guys, the idea is only being put out there at this time to "guage" the interest. This in order to find out whether it is actually worth all of the time and effort that it will take to iron out and organize everything. It is not a final plan by any means at this point - just a feeler.

Rob

[Hecklin at y'al]

Maybe by setting up as a CO-OP you can prevent strata-type fees and issues. As long as you do not claim a profit, I don't think it's that's difficult to set up. You can then charge prospective users a CO-OP membership fee to use the park, or a higher cost drop-in fee. Founding members get to use the park at a reduced fee, or free, and all monies recieved goes back into the park or to trail access groups.
Just my .02.
Tim...drives 2 hours to ski and fish, would drive 2 hours to wheel.

[brian468]

so you`ve got 500k for the land, how much is insurance gonna run ya?


i`d start building an off road park tommorrow if it weren`t for the liability.

[Chet]

Once again liability can be overcome. our club did and failry reasonably too.

I would say a 5K buy in and yearly "strata fees" to cover insurance and land taxes would work. It would be nice to have a small house or mobile home provided to a "grounds keeper" free rent like. They would look over the place and make calls if something needed fixing or problems arise.

[jeeponrock]

Guys, the idea is only being put out there at this time to "guage" the interest. This in order to find out whether it is actually worth all of the time and effort that it will take to iron out and organize everything. It is not a final plan by any means at this point - just a feeler.

Rob

What Rob said. I know Al is aware of these issues and it working with a lawyer and other people to sort out this stuff.

And as Chet mentioned it is possible to get the liability insurance issues worked out. Even in the lawsuit happy USofA there are many major offroad parks that are privately owned.

If enough interest is shown, I'm sure we can work out the details :D

[mijinkal]

I'd be interested in investing. Pending the details obviously

[S.C. Offroad]

even if owners were charged a $100/year fee for up keep, insurance, tax... There would be minimal complaints.
Then charge users $250/year membership or $15/day you would be able to put a lot of money into the park and different events held at the park

[remy]

even if owners were charged a $100/year fee for up keep, insurance, tax... There would be minimal complaints.
Then charge users $250/year membership or $15/day you would be able to put a lot of money into the park and different events held at the park

I think the numbers will be a hard thing to come up with if you've got two choices:
a) $5000+100/year
b) $0+$250/year
If it only saves $150/year it'll take 34 years until it becomes more economical to be a buyer. If it doesn't make sense to be a buyer nobody would buy and there might be no park.

Or a possible 3rd option, a club buys in and then you pay just your annual club fees and get the same as a guy who pays full?

I agree $100/year is reasonable to ask for for maintenance because it is so little. <$10 a month is just a few litres of fuel, it won't really affect anybody that can put up the initial contribution.

However with 100 owners that would mean somebody(s) would need to decide what to do with $10,000k a year, plus whatever fees are collected from non-members.

So many details to work out...